EP #95 - Winning In A Debt World With Mikey Smith

I sit down with Mikey from Guardian Smith Mortgage for a great chat about his business journey. Mikey shares how he built a successful mortgage business in what many would call one of the toughest economic climates.

We dive into a range of topics including building wealth, understanding how the NZ property market works, and the Kiwi mindset when it comes to money. Enjoy!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And I'm with the CEO of Guardian Smith Mortgage and Financial Services, Mikey Smith. What's up, everyone? Thanks for coming along, dude. It's all good, man. Appreciate your time. It's a bit of a crazy day. Um Mikey was out before helping out some friends and family. Um Yeah, we're in the middle of a storm.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Actually, driving here was like is quite nice, eh? Because there's no one on the roads. Yeah, everyone's freaking out. Everyone's been stockpiling everything at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

The supermarkets have been yeah, everyone's fear. Everyone's freaked out. But it's not, it's alright. I mean, up north, I hope everyone's alright. But um, yeah, I'm hoping that it doesn't end up as serious as everyone's made it out to be.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Nah, normally the ones that we have that um we get like two weeks' notice always like peter out, and it's the ones that hit us by surprise that seem to be. Yeah, the one a few years ago, like three years ago around here was actually quite serious.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Um Yeah, there were trees down and flooding and everything. Yeah, a lot of people's houses got flooded and there was looting and stuff. Like, yeah, it was yuck. That's plus yuck. But anyway, dude, let's talk. Um I'm really excited to talk to you not so much because mortgages excite me, but more because of like uh I think in the current times that we've been in in not just New Zealand but globally of how the economy is and starting a business. Um it's you could argue the last probably since COVID is probably one of the most difficult times. Maybe some people would argue to start a business, um, to you know, have do do well. Just being in business, yeah. Just being in business in general. Um and I think I find that really interesting and uh inspiring, I think, with like like yourself. So I look I look I saw you like a recent post you put up that your business originally started in your garage. Yeah, and you know now you've got businesses opening you a branch opening up in Christchurch. So that's really exciting. So well done for that. Um but what I kind of want to ask you is like uh why be a mortgage like what why go into that industry? Is it is it is you at the time did you see a lot of potential in it? Is it because you there's there's uh something that excites you?

SPEAKER_00 1:54

No, no, no, no. So I me getting into the mortgage game was almost pure luck. Um I kind of I knew it existed because I'd used a mortgage broker, but I didn't really know anything about it. Um it was just pure luck that I bumped into a mortgage advisor and at the time I was sort of unemployed, and I was asking her how much she earned, and she was like, Oh, like 3350k a year, and I was like, holy shit. Yeah, and that was that that was the reason I got into it. Um so there was there was like you know, it's a funny industry, like no one goes to school and thinks I'm gonna be a mortgage advisor or an insurance advisor or whatever when I grow up. You know, now there's Kiwi Saber advisors too and stuff like that. So it's not a it's not something that people aspire to be. Like people do go to school and think they're gonna be an accountant.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Um yeah, there's accounting, accounting is a subject in school, right? You don't have it's not a mortgage broker subject in school.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

And like in a way, we're similar in some sense to we're we're like almost I mean, we're financial advisors, but we're kind of accountants for people's personal finances. You know, an accountant is an accountant for people's businesses, and they don't really look too much at the personal finance side. It's like, no, we're doing the business financials here. We do that on the on the personal finance side, and we're like, oh, you can afford this and buy this, and you need to cut down on this, and you can actually increase your savings to get to a bigger deposit by this time, and all of that kind of thing. And so, yeah, it's similar but not the same, but it's uh funny how it's like unknown kind of in a way.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Yeah, it's um something uh I guess people wouldn't typically think uh is like a career choice, or it would come up as like, oh yeah, that's something that um yeah, could could get into. I wanted to uh ask you, because you deal a lot with people's personal finances and that. Yeah. And uh this could be like someone like yourself. I mean, you probably dealt with hundreds and hundreds of people, especially in New Zealand. Thousands, yeah. Thousands of yeah, that's crazy. So, like what's um what's like something you've noticed like with um with people's finances that they kind of don't realize they're just losing their money and like they're like drowning in and like maybe like a they don't understand like oh we could have saved this money for I don't know, maybe they're pouring money into the wrong thing or No I mean this sounds a bit cliche these days, but the the most common sort of I guess like f f personal financial fault that you see is lifestyle creep with income growth.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

And you know, we all we all start out like 18 and or coming out of uni or coming out of school or whatever, 18 into a trade, but we whatever we go into, like we start out poor and most of the time, and it you know, people start earning money, and some people s start accelerating up the ladder of earning money, and generally speaking, you know, it's quite a small percentage of people that continue to earn more and more money and don't let their lifestyle keep up with that money. So you go to nicer restaurants, you buy nicer cars, and you know, I've seen um surgeons on nearly a million dollars a year uh just rolling finance on new Audis and you know maxing themselves out basically and have nothing left over. Because just bad habits they've they've accumulated since when they were probably in uni or things like that, or it's not even well, it's just the world we live in, you know. It's sort of like that's how that's how society works these days. But those those people could also do exceptionally well if they stacked assets and use their income in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Yeah, I when I um chatted to Luke on here, he said um I really stood out to me this point he made about we haven't been educated of how to deal with the debt-based economy, like most of us haven't, because now you know we've got all the afterpay and everything like that, and it's just so common to finance on everything, like you just said. And we don't really have education, like everything's subscription-based, and you know, all these minor transactions come out of your account every month. Like it's just so normal. But yeah, we have I don't know, like, yeah, I I don't think we've learned how to deal with it. I mean, only recently for me, I've just tried to get a better handle on like you know, pulling out the spreadsheets and like where's everything going? Like, I've yeah, and I get kind of lost in like what did I sign up to? Oh, it's an extra 30 bucks a month coming out. Like, fuck do I need that?

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Yeah, yeah, you gotta be so careful these days, eh? Like, it's kind of like you need to subscribe to 500 bucks a month worth of shit just to live these days, you know. Like, yeah, I look at the subscriptions that go through Guardian Smith and it's like, holy shit, you know, there's I would hate to think how much we pay Google. You know, 100%. Yeah, the Google ads and the Google Suite and Yeah, just like just even like the you know, every time we add another person on, it's like$25 a month for a new email. You know, like that that stuff starts to add up when you've got 50 people. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, just the full subscription thing, like you really do need to keep an eye on your finances these days. Like the the tech bros have have got us by the balls effectively, and we've just got to obey and pay.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Obey and pay. It's um it is strange the way, because I guess like even I I remember I had a friend on here who were talking about like what was like the first thing that kind of became a subscription. Because I remember like I think the first thing I ever got was probably Spotify or something, like quite a long time ago now when I think about it. But then like whoever in software decided, like, you know what, instead of you buy like$100-150 for this software, now you can you just have to keep paying for it every month. Yeah. And then you know, we'll do updates and stuff, and it's just like I don't know, it just kind of sucks.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

It's just another version of finance, like you're just financing out, you know, something but they turned it into a yeah, I don't know. It's a funny one. There's lots of stuff like that though. But yeah, in terms of like the debt-based economy and and how everything's financed, it's kind of just like the society we live in and it's become normalized. And the only cool thing about that, because I'm not like a huge fan of it, like I prefer I'm a bit more of like a conservative person in terms of like leverage and risk and all of that kind of stuff. I think you know, it was basically leverage which blew up 2008-09. Um and you know, there's a you see all these like crazy things like America's$38 trillion in debt and Japan's like 300% debt to GDP, and like all of this stuff is just like scattered everywhere, and it feels like everything's like walking on eggshells all the time. But the one cool thing it does mean is if you can be clever, earn decent income, pay assets or buy assets and then keep low leverage, you can get really well off over time. Right and the because everyone else is going the other way and going like up to their eyeballs and and leverage in debt, you can win from that. How would you how would you win? Don't leverage yourself up as much. Be smart. Yeah. Do you do you need a$200,000 Audi R8 with$180,000 worth of finance on it?

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I yeah. I I I do interesting, you said before, like you said, like you'll beat surgeons and stuff like million dollar salaries who'll then buy like finance like yeah, the those vehicles. I just wonder what kind of goes through their head. It's just because oh, I can afford this, but it's not right now.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

So everything's based on your ability to service. It's the same with like subscriptions. Like everyone has like a subconscious understanding of what they're getting paid per week or per month. And if someone's getting paid five thousand dollars a week and I say, Oh, this car finances two thousand dollars a week, you're like, sweet, I can live off three grand. That's the calculation people do in their head. Yeah, they don't they don't but yeah, they don't break it down enough to be like, wait a minute. Yeah, but that no one goes and looks at the you know, this happens with mortgages all the time. No one goes and looks at the statement and goes, Oh, 2,000 that$2,000 repayment a week is you know, a lot of it is interest. And a lot of that is is profit for the for the finance company or the lender. And that looks like it's expensive, you know, like it's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

And it might end up being more than the initial down payment. Well, quite often it does, right? Always ended up. But it's just that that first number that looks uh looks appealing. I mean, I find it mental. Actually, I think I might have talked to a little bit Luke about this on here as well, that people would afterpay like the Uber Eats. Oh, yeah. But I find that mental.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Uh pretty crazy. That's so crazy that you're not.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

But then it's like also mental to you know, if you go look at any 30-year mortgage, if you take out a million dollar loan, like on average of a five percent interest rate, by the end of its 30 years, you've paid two million. True. You know, like but that's not mental, that's normal.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

So we've normalized that. That seems acceptable. Yeah. Interesting. Actually, that's a good point. Like we've normalized certain debt to be okay. Yeah. And we've normalized that within the property. Yeah, property just seems so like I mean, I still don't fully understand how it all works. Um, but I just find that to be, yeah, I don't own any property myself because I'm like, I think by the time I want to do a down payment, I want to have as much as I can to get it. Uh because like, oh, you can get 5%, or like, you know, do these deposits or buy this, and but then like, you know, how long you end up having to pay it back for, and I don't know, like if can my income increase enough and then inflation or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah, I don't think so. Like I don't think the size of your deposit uh well, it is relevant, but it's not relevant to how much debt you take out versus your income. Right. So regardless of what your deposit is, if you can keep your mortgage within three to four times the size of your annual household income, you're I would say that's a pretty good place to start. Because so many people have like six, seven, eight times their income in terms of their mortgage size. Um even the reserve banks put like new rules on that now and they're like capping it at at six and seven for investors and things like that. So they're trying to bring that down over time. Um but yeah, if you can yeah, if you can have, you know it's hard to do though, right? Because if you've got a hundred and a hundred thousand dollar income, you then you're talking about a four hundred thousand dollar mortgage and like in Auckland, what are you gonna buy with that? So then it does come down to deposit, but that's the sort of where I would say people should be safe within that three to four and a half times income range.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 11:59

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Oh, I'd have to remember that when I look into it. Um just spoken lots of Kiwis on property. Um what would you say the biggest like about in mortgage is what would you say like the biggest misconception people have about property? About property and mortgage, like like what would you say like a common misconception you come across when people talk to you?

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Um not so much a misconception, but more uh what people don't think about when they're buying a home. It's only just started coming up in the last sort of year or two because of the massive increases in it, but like no one ever comes and sits down and asks for ask us for a mortgage and goes, Do you know what the council rates will be? Right. Or what's the insurance on this? They always just like want the approval and go shopping before they do those calculations. And it's the wrong move, and it's like that's part of our job is to bring that up and show people because it's real. But you can if you go and buy in the middle of Auckland somewhere, there's a good chance that you're up for like five to seven thousand dollars worth of rates and insurance just to run the property every year. Like that's quite a big number. It's more than a hundred dollars a week that you haven't thought about.

unknown 13:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Yeah. That's a good one. Council rates. Yeah, well that's not uncommon now for an well, even like regionally, the some of the rates I've heard of down in down in Hamilton and other places are like extortion it almost, you know. Like councils have been so badly managed over the last 25 years um and so riddled with debt, like the even their interest expenses are through the roof. And and like such poor management, you know, like some of the leaders in councils are well the people that and the bureaucrats behind the scenes have just like absolutely butchered the place to the point of like it's really hard to unwind.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

They've accumulated so much of their own debt and caused a lot of like people don't uh know how to manage the expenses, would you say, that they've created the company?

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Uh no, I think there's just like a super low level of competence in councils. Right. Yeah, yeah. So like they have money come in from rates and then they have money go out for their expenses, and like their rates is their income, and you know, their parking fees is their income and all of that kind of stuff. And they just get sent, oh, we've got like Auckland councils are oh, we've got five billion dollars worth of revenue, this department can have this much, this department can have this much, you know, it's all this is how they budget it. But when it gets to this department, you've got a fucking retard running it. And you can't fire them because you know, like that's racist these days, or whatever the reason is, but like it's very hard to get rid of people, especially in government. Yeah, I mean like the bureaucratic like layer that is just like baked in is is and that that just means your council rates will keep going up.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

So incompetence within council, you reckon, is the reason why yeah. And okay, that's interesting. Um yeah, um so also as well, I know um I've listened to you guys on the podcast with Luke, uh, with Luke talking about renting and owning. And um I just kind of want to get like your your opinion like today. What's your like have you got an any and a sort of thoughts around what's best of renting or owning a property? Like the I guess the pros and cons.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Man, how much do you want me to cook on this?

SPEAKER_02 15:14

How hard can I go? As hard as you want, okay. You can go as long as you want or as short as you want. I'm just I'm just interested from your perspective because there's a lot of arguments around this, and we're in New Zealand, and obviously having a property seems to be the whole like, well hey, you got a property. But then obviously renting um there's yeah, people have different thoughts and ideas.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

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SPEAKER_00 16:22

So I think owning your own home for you and your family is like really important. I think there's um uh something inside humans that I think especially males as well, to be honest, that's like etched in history where like sovereign property rights and privacy and something that's your own is really important for for us to do well. No we've got somewhere that you know family is we can protect and keep safe and all of that kind of thing. And so I'm like a big believer in like trying to be in your own home. Um, I'm not a gigantic believer in like buying up 15 residential rental properties, and like landlords will say, like, well, who's gonna provide them then? And like things like that. And I'm like, they would just go on the market and the prices would come down and be more affordable, you know, someone will push back on that. But um I don't yeah, I just I'm not a huge fan of how financialized the housing market's got because it's turned into like a$1.6 trillion asset, but look, you know, half of it, half of it's loaded with debt to do it. The monetization of housing, it's it's gone basically. It's gone, it's gone. It's turned into money because our money sucks.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Yeah. So like the New Zealand dollar is such a piece of trash that we've had to find somewhere else to like we go to work, we earn some money, and if you earn$100,000 in a year, which is like$70,000 after tax or whatever, at the end of that year, you if you save 100% of that$70,000, the following year it would only buy you like six sixty-five thousand dollars worth of goods because it just keeps to depreciating in value. So what we do is we all like have the societal contract between each other that we go and buy houses and that raises the price of houses, and that holds the value. So that becomes a store of value. So we as the private market created our own savings account because the the government and the state and the reserve bank devalued it and we don't have control over that, they do that to us, so we have to go and figure out a way. Subconsciously, we chose housing, and the banks love that. Of course, you know, and um it's it's no different to anything. It's the only it's the only reason like we can't really save properly because we devalue currency so often. Um, and that's the reason why people like gold, that's the reason people like shares. You know, you need something to go up in value all the time to protect your purchasing power. Um because if you just went to work every day, which is like where half of you know, like middle to low income poverty comes from, is like people just going to work every day, living their lives, and then they get to the end of like 30 years or 40 years of working or whatever, and they've got nothing, it's just they just lived in dollars. They didn't do anything wrong, they just didn't look at assets and they didn't understand that their currency was falling to shit. You know, like I don't even blame boomers for like owning all the property because what were they meant to do? There wasn't much opportunity to grow another. But boomers that if you go and talk to like the boomers that don't own property and don't own assets, they're fucked. Because all they had was 40 years of devaluing dollars. You know, like and it sits in a term deposit and they've got 200 grand in a term deposit, and if they had 200 grand in term deposit in 1984, that'd be a lot of money. But you know, if they've got 300 grand now, it's nowhere near that kind of money. Doesn't there, doesn't, doesn't it? The value's not there. So the people had to do something, um, and we just chose that. So I don't technically well I don't really like the idea of like supporting that heaps, but I do massively back the idea of owning your own home so you can have you know self-sovereignty almost. And have something that's yours.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Yeah. Of course, at the end. But then with w with renting, like uh what's your did do do you think for for most people like what it's a it's not stepping is it's not as much of a how would I say? I feel like in New Zealand we're kind of like um looking for like we're like oh you rent like you're not gonna be able to do that. Oh there's a stigma attached to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The stigma, yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah, well, I mean, there's all the people that bought like but in October 2021 too, so there's a stigma attached to that now. Like I had friends who did that. Yeah, yeah. So I mean that goes in who cares what people think, eh? Just do your own thing, but I guess there is probably a stigma to it, but you know, I've been I've I've lived in my own house, uh rented, owned my own house and done everything. And I've been renting the last few years, and I live in a really big house and big garage and it's comfortable, and it hasn't the rent hasn't gone up for four or five years now. Me, you know, I haven't had to suffer any of those interest rate increases or you know the volatility of that. So it's been good, but there's no way I want to stay there. I want to like have my own place where I can sure, you know, if I want to do a burnout in my driveway or whatever, then I want to be able to do that and not be in trouble, you know?

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I like I like that idea of like the stepping stone. I think we well, I don't know, we all do, but at times, even myself, I'll be like, okay, I'm renting right now. Eventually I'll work towards like, okay, what is like when would I want a property? When would I want to advance myself to acquire another asset? Maybe not even a property. Maybe well, maybe it's like something maybe more commercial or something, like maybe whatever that might be, another investment doesn't have to have your own house. Maybe it could be um like yeah, like a business uh commercial property or something like that, which could maybe that's a good idea, maybe it's not.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Well, it's kind of a different asset class. Yeah, that is truly an investment asset class, you know, commercial property, and that's really based on you know debt coverage ratios and whether you've got you know the right amount. Of lease and yield and all that kind of stuff, like you're in an occupied property where you live and like none of that stuff matters, and it's basically just comes down to your income versus debt amount and whether you can cover it or not.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Yeah. I I I yeah, I I remember like when I was talking to Luke about this, like he said, um, I think it's like with the investment with the money that you have, like uh where was I going with this? I think it's just yeah, like when it comes to is it is it's well there's like an opportunity cost. Opportunity cost, but like is is the property, is the house that important as well? Like to own it.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Yeah, I th I think it's much more important than Luke thinks. Yeah. Fair enough, you are business. I think uh I think that like half of the reason that society is like slowly breaking down in this like average this lower lower trend over time is because there's lots of people that think they'll never own a property, which means they'll never have someone to call home. And you know, it's not the same as it's not owning a home is not the same as a government saying like, yeah, but we'll provide you housing. That's like and there's people that need it and we've got it, and people can take advantage of it or whatever, but that doesn't do anything for uh your internal like belief system that you've made it or that you're that you're protecting something. If someone just gives you a house and it's like here, we'll look after you, like it doesn't make you feel good. No, you know, like that's also not it's not yours.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Yeah, I was gonna say that. It's not yours.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

You know, like so that doesn't create like a a flourishing society in my mind.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Something that's not yours. That's it's true. Um I wanted to I I read um I was on your LinkedIn about like as I found this kind of crazy, you had some staff getting like some defrets or something. Yeah. So that's crazy. Like uh like fucking like yeah, in a LinkedIn post, like you I think you said and then said we have a dark side to a public jealousy, tear down entitlement, and like you don't deserve it unless I have it. And like I really resonated with that because I think that's very true.

SPEAKER_05 24:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Um but that's really crazy, like someone in the mortgage like people will behave like that to people who are in mortgage land property, like deference.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Well, it's just success in general.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

It doesn't matter that it's like it doesn't matter what what industry, yeah, it doesn't matter. But I just find it crazy that especially in that world, like what the fuck? What why would why would someone go b go so different?

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Well it doesn't yeah, the yeah, the sector doesn't you know when I was growing up I remember seeing these two young guys um on One News with this big you know expose thing about them and they started working in their garage and then they'd invented this machine where they clip onto the end of the hose and it would fill up a hundred water balloons at a time, and they'd just made a million bucks and they were young and all of this stuff, you know. And it that was the Mowbrays and that was the beginning of Zuru. And this thing at the time was like how amazing it was and cool and Kiwi Ingenuity, and like you go on the media now and they all and they just like attack him, especially Nick, because he likes putting himself out there. Oh right. But like they'll all support you on the way up, but when you get there they're they're trying to knock over that that tower A. Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

It's weird though, right? It's like all the hard work you compound and put in. Yeah, it's like but I also find that like uh in New Zealand we have a weird thing like at times where you need to go overseas and kind of prove it at times. Like I don't know, live notice was like especially when it comes to like um I think in athletes or maybe more in like the entertainment world. Because people in New Zealand are like oh yeah, cool, like you know, you do music or you're an athlete and you've done well here. Like cool, cool.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Well, I guess when it comes to sport yeah, I mean sport is like a global stage thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Like you kind of do if you want to prove that you're the best, like you gotta go play against LeBron or But I I don't always find there's much support for because you're saying people on the come up. I think you you kind of have a different opinion from what I have, is like people in the beginning are like, oh cool, you're doing that thing, it's probably not gonna work. Then you grind really hard for ages, and everyone's sort of like, Are you still doing that? Okay, cool. And then you finally get there, and then everyone's like, Oh, what the fuck? Like, you think you're better than us?

SPEAKER_00 26:05

And it's just like Yeah, it's kind of weird. It's a weird thing we've got here. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

I get asked this, I get asked about this heap saying I struggle with it because I don't even think about it. Yeah, it's healthy not to probably it's healthy to try and not be a part of that, and I but it's just in New Zealand, it's just fucking everywhere. Yeah, it's really hard to like escape it.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Um I just don't care. Like, if you're complaining about someone else's success, you're just a loser. That's what I yeah, I think so. You know, like it's so weird. Like uh you never get complained at from above. No, you know, like if the all the people that are that are above you and have have made it or are success successful at what they've done, whenever I bump into those people, they're like, oh good on you, mate. Like if they ask me what I'm doing and I say, you know, it's the complete opposite. So I don't like I don't want to be friends with the losers. I want to know the guys that are like supportive and fun.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Yeah, but also just like complaining like it's always it's always someone else's fault.

unknown 27:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

And it's always some like someone else did this, I can't have that. Part of that is like I'm upset, I can't have that.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Yeah, part of that is is like um the destruction of like our fair currency that just like continues to lose value over time, which means everything just gets more and more expensive, like compared to our wages, everything costs more. You know, like that's why guys like that, Gary's economics blow up, because he's like, Oh, the solution is to tax the rich, and you know, the that we just create these like massive divides in society around it.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Um yeah, the rich and the poor argument, yeah. Like that whole thing of like, yeah, the rich have everything, the poor have nothing. It's an argument, but it's like a class battle. And I think there is truth in it, but at the same time, it's like it's case by case. I don't think you can put all billion or like very wealthy people all in the exact same pigeonhole. I think some of them you probably can. Maybe they do come from wealth and they've inherited it. Not saying it's a bad thing, but I think it doesn't even matter that part.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Like, it's just like the boomers. Like, what's a bit if a billionaire you know creates a company and provides epithet value to society and then ends up with a billion dollars, what is he meant to do with it? Leave it in dollars that lose like eight to ten percent in value a year? And then he's got to go and buy assets to protect the value. He's just like someone like oh shit. No, you're right. That's all good. It's gonna sing through the mic. It's just like someone who, you know, was has bought one or two rental properties or three rentals since the 1970s, it's exactly the same theory. Like they they chose to do that to so they could store their value and not save it in dollars. So everyone's doing the same thing. It's just that that's happened so much throughout society from everywhere over the last 40 years that even the assets now, like if you're on the come up and you're earning 100 grand, like everything looks so expensive because the wages haven't kept up with it all.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Because yeah, I obviously we're in a time now we've we've never had so many billionaires before, right? I think Yeah, but like soon there'll be trillionaires and then there'll be quadrillionaires. Like that's what happens with currency. The zeros just get added on. You can't stop that. But how do you reckon?

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Do you reckon that's gonna cause more class divide?

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Yeah, I think eventually like empires and currencies fail. Yeah. Be interesting to see what happens after that.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

I'm just I don't know I just find it interesting like with with like the common the common person, the common employee, right? Because you are like we were talking about, you like you know, because you are at f like you're you're at risk of inflation so much more. Yeah. And obviously, like you said, like the dollar and not and obviously we're getting paid a wage, but you can only, you know, unless you're diverting your portfolio and investing in that, which not everybody maybe can. I mean they can, but maybe not as a high a level as someone with obviously more income. So I'm just kind of curious, like, yeah, with all these billions that we've got and people accumulating more wealth and then like owning more assets, and then because you that's people own like 50k a year, like holy shit, man, how do you keep up?

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Yeah, well, you've gotta unfortunately in this world now the way it is is like you can't just be skilled at like this is what Luke talks about all the time. Like you have to be you have to improve your skills so you can increase your income. Like that's one job you've got, and that kind of has always been something that you needed to do. Um whether it's moving through the hierarchy of a company or creating something else, something on your own and and earning an income that way and improving it and growing it every year. But there's this second part of that whole journey of life now that you have to do, which is really understand like the debt and the money to make sure that you're protecting yourself against it. Because if you just save in term deposits for the rest of your life, you will get it obliterated by inflation, it just chews you up. You know the real rate of you know, you see a in a a term deposit at three percent or whatever, and it's locked in for five years, like the real rate is like negative three. And that's you know, that's based on like CPI being at th at whatever it is, not let alone all the other stuff.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Oh sorry, what what's CPI?

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Uh inflation, inflation numbers, consumer price index, and it's built up with like a basket of goods, and if you go and unpack the basket of goods, it's like the average price of everything in that basket, and the government controls what they put in that basket. Um, and you go and look at that, and like half the stuff in there you don't use, you know, like TVs are in there, which is good, but they keep everything down, right? Like technology's deflationary, so it's come down so much in price that it pulls it down, but steak is not. You know, like steak has just got more and more expensive, and like you don't need a TV, but you do need steak, you know, like or food. Yes. Um, so you sort of get cooked in that in that regard. And it's just really important to make sure that you um I mean the only answer over the next like 10 to 20 years is is to try and improve your income and increase your income and then and then own assets like that are stores of value or give you something.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Yeah. I just I guess it's just um I think I think for I think we're similar age, we're both in our thirty you're in your thirties, right? Yeah, yeah. Because I guess with what we're taught like uh back in the day, it was sort of like, you know, you can have like a I think it was a skills-based economy. And I was actually chatting to my my parents about this um back when they were at university in the 80s and that skills-based jobs were so highly fought after that you didn't even even though uni was also very cheap back then and whatever, but there'd be all these um like companies like just begging students to come work then. You get like you know, really good package and you know, like a good salary and that, and you know, you can have a very successful life. But now that doesn't that that that doesn't happen anymore. So and I feel like with like the like the younger, like or Gen Z or even younger, like because of social media and that, they're much more entrepreneurial, I find. And I think they're much more like in the world that they're in, it's like I need to diversify, I can't just rely on like one thing. So a lot of people become content creators or do other things. Whereas I think millennials I think are pretty good at it. Um but I still feel like yeah, like the lesson that we were taught was like, yeah, like well.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

I mean it's completely changed, right? Like my my grandparents had fish and chip shops, right? And they owned houses, a batch, you know, cars and everything. And they would buy fish and chip, or they would start a fish and chip shop, grow it, sell it, move to the next area, blah blah blah, move around and do that. They did really well for themselves. My parents, my dad was a mechanic, you know, bought a house, has a beach house, has a commercial building that he worked in, like that was his thing. You know, and if I look at those two career paths for me, if I wanted to do a fish and chip shop or be a mechanic, I can't create the wealth that they created with it. Like that's gone. Some of that is um the market treating different things at different values. Um other parts is like, you know, there's a real small version of this is um before I got into the game I'm in, we we started I started importing cars from Japan. And when I started um to sell, and when I started, I'd make three grand a car, and then five years later I was making three hundred a car. And part of that is because the market figured it out, and every man and his dog started doing it, and the competition comes in, it didn't matter how much better and cleaner and more reliable the cars that I was selling was, like people would just go and buy the cheap one, you know. So the market is always fighting in that kind of way, and you know, that's happened to it's hard to own flash houses and flash cars and stuff if you have a fish and chip shop. There's more fish and chip shops around, but also people don't value it as much, so you can't charge like$500 for fish and chips. No, no, you know, so things change over time.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Yeah, no, I I I I just find it um I find it interesting with like yeah, the ways that uh yeah, like I guess what what gets it also comes down to like what you're taught. I I never went to like business school, university, or anything like that, and what gets taught in business, but I'm like, man, that changes so often. Like, how do you even you know even what I I because I work in marketing and stuff, and I have I worked with a younger girl who's in marketing, and some of the stuff she'll tell me about the fairy, I'm like, what? Like, really? You guys didn't learn like some other things, like some more digital stuff, or you know, like you just it's uh it's a lot of like things that are kind of almost old school, yeah, in some ways, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know. It's like this the the market and the way that business works now is just so different to it's even what it was 15 years ago. Yeah, well what's valuable in the market, eh? Yeah, and what's and what's value exactly what's valuable in the market. Um yeah, so it's um having a having a skill that it's also like a skill that's gonna last you, right? Like what's gonna be able something that can evolve. That's why I'm I'm I'm very happy I kind of got into marketing a few years back because I'm like everyone will everyone needs it. Yeah. Regardless of how long. And obviously for you, like everyone's gonna need a mortgage broker, everyone's gonna need uh financial advice. Like that's never gonna you know go away. And I think it's just yeah. And also being in an industry where you can kind of pivot and maybe you can sidestep in even if maybe your role, I don't know, not but not gonna happen with you, but you can sidestep into something else, maybe if it doesn't work, well we're already doing we're already diversifying in terms of like financial services.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Like the the main pillar at Guardian Smith has always been the mortgages, and we've got about 30 guys in that arm now. Now we've opened up like the life and risk insurance side with another 10 guys there. So that's like a different type of financial service, but it's also important for people to have protection. And then we're gonna open up the KiwiSaver arm because that's becoming something quite important and people don't understand it. It's still early days, and like people are calling KiwiSaver a scam and stuff still. Uh they sit in like it's another scam. Yeah, and then and then we s I see like um banks and stuff advertising that they were the number one provider for you know KiwiSaver last year. But if you look at the fine print, that was like the cash fund, which is yeah, anyway. There's all sorts of stuff out there that you need to keep an eye on with that. And then we're gonna do what's called general insurance too, so your house, car, and contents and all of that stuff. So we're diversifying into well, it's not diversifying, it was always part of the plan, but we're starting to grow into like a full, basically, buffet of the financial services, so we can do every single pillar of it and make sure that you know if someone walks within inside the doors at Guardian, they can get good value service from every sector of it.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Yeah, that's yeah, and obviously from a mortgage point of view, obviously KiwiSavers are very involved anyway, so it's an easy, I guess, way to talk to people about it.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Yeah, well, we're already talking to people about the Kiwi Savers all the time. And like actually the way that the regulation and um you know the FMA outlines it is it's actually a different skill and a different qualification to to provide advice on it. So a mortgage advisor can't provide you advice on your KiwiSaver, even though we we know about it because we deal with it all the time, we're always watching it, and we're in involved in the industry until we get the qualification and have a certain license. We're not allowed to say to people, you know, you shouldn't be at this conservative fund at the bank, you're 28 years old. You know, we we can't say that, so we're kind of blocked from saying that, which is why we're opening up and licensing to do it, so we can actually talk to people and be like, you got 40 years left, like let's talk about growth and and getting something a bit more suitable for you to get rich off. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

Sure. Um on the um yeah, getting rich off and that and talking about um Kiwi mentality with finance. I've on the podcast you did recently, I really liked when you guys talked about what obviously the whole hot topic of recession in New Zealand the last few years, and and then a lot of it kind of I liked I think what you said was like we have this now it's actually a mindset. Oh yeah, that was yeah, Luke said that. Oh Luke said that, sorry. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Recession mindset, and I I really liked that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've kind of been in a mindset recession since 2022, I reckon.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

And some people during COVID, even you know, I've there was some people that you know never made it out of COVID properly because and and some of it was like unfortunate, like if you were in hospital through that time, constantly going through lockdown or tourism, even like man, it was brutal. Yeah, the event industry got absolutely fucking crushed. Yeah, like that kind of stuff, and you know, I feel sorry to those people because that was like truly one of those things that they had zero control over, and like if you're in the events industry, like what do you pivot to? Yeah, like I mean it's just yeah, anyway, but yeah, there's definitely a definitely a mindset recession in New Zealand. But there's been like a mindset recession in New Zealand for like 20 years now, which is part of like the tall poppy thing, and sure, yeah. I think it's just like a product of like socialism.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Sure. I I but I do think I think what I love about when you guys talk about like there is a lot of opportunity out there, obviously, if you look and you find and you try and that, but I think again, like that that problem, like in New Zealand, like you want to try something, it's like fuck, which is something that we all have to. I mean, having conversations like this, I just hope that people were like not so scared to to just go and try something, yeah. Just do it, eh?

SPEAKER_00 39:32

To help themselves. The cool thing about New Zealand is like I'm lucky enough to have travelled a fair bit, man, and every time I fly back out and I see the top of the North Island, I'm like, oh you are so good, eh? And it is, and you know, I don't even know how to describe how good New Zealand is, you know, like it's just the best country in the world, it's it's a little bit expensive, but that's like a small price to pay still, you know. Like I would like to see like the trend that seems to be you know smashing the middle class consistently, just like year after year after year. I don't like that. Like I feel like small to medium business owners have been you know catching a few licks for for a long time. Um but uh apart from that, like if you can if you can like make it to New Zealand to a point where you're like you can get to average or above average and then create uh a hopeful future for yourself where you can see yourself progressing and getting on a journey, like man, it is just it's class A, it's world class.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Yeah. Why do you think Kiwis are so uh skeptical? Um because our governments keep fucking us over, eh? That's also true. Yeah. But I guess I mean it's uh I guess for quite a long time. I mean, we're just I mean, including myself, I'm not excluding myself, I'm also very skeptical when something comes along and like, oh, what's that? Hmm, let me see. Yeah. But I don't know if that's like a part of being a small country or you know, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

There's just like heaps of evidence of stuff that we didn't vote for keeps occurring and it be it gets ingrained in you eventually, you know. Like I was talking to this about to Luke. It's like when did you ever go to the voting booth, for example, and sign up for 485 cameras on every block in the city? They just appeared. I don't remember agreeing to that. Just some cheating bill that was signed with no one in the city. Yeah, and they say like, oh, it's privacy and you know, safety, uh whatever it is. But it's like now you know that they can see everything. Yeah, you know, and like we didn't agree to it. So like that whenever that kind of stuff like continues to occur, eventually you you piss your people off, you know, like and it is what it is, like I don't care, but you know, the I understand why people get pissed because when you look at that, that's a great example of it. And there's like all sorts of other things like really dumb stuff happens in roading, and you know, NZTA have reached out to me about this, but you know, they say that you know there's all these speed bumps that go in and shit, and it's like to slow down, and but then you like try and look into the data, and it's like no one's ever died on that road, ever.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

What was what was the reason into to put in speed bumps or to create more um I guess barriers of getting somewhere quicker?

SPEAKER_00 42:20

And now, like how many people die because the ambulance has got to slow down or the cops have got to slow down?

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

You know, like what are we doing here? Hey, that's a good point. Yeah, we don't have that data yet either, so I can't prove that. But no, but the fine what about that? There's a cost to everything, man. Like so, yeah, we see this all the time, but eventually, like lots of us don't know what it is, but it's kind of like eventually you start asking, like, why is society getting worse? And then you like look around, and if you use your eyes, you can see this stuff, you know. And eventually it's like, man, this feels rubbish, and we become skeptical.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Yeah, you know, and that's that creates that also is what's like created like our populism and in voting and politics, and like there's such a big divide between left and right, and like I found that happen particularly I was because if I remember before COVID, and I just remember like obviously like paying attention when Trump first got into power in the States, and even before that, and like I travelled to America a long time ago now, and I would talk to people and I kind of would sense that people were talking about left and right, and I was like, Oh, you know, in New Zealand, luckily we don't really have that. And that was true probably like 15 years ago. You're right, actually. We didn't really have that. That's true, yeah. And then um, I come back and I would sort of see how the media would behave. I'm gonna call them out the humble NZ Herald stuff. Everything becomes a lot like a lot more like identity politics would start coming in. I'm like, this is kind of yuck. I don't know. Yeah. And then suddenly COVID came, boom, now we're the same. Yeah. Now we've got left and right.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

It's like Yeah, that's so true. I remember you're so right. I remember thinking lucky we don't have that, like that divide like other countries have had.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

And now we got it. Yeah, we do. Which is makes me really sad because again it's like No one cares about your point if you're right. I just want to be right with my with with this party and this community because I get validation with like my tribal thinking. And I, you know, that's another whole kind of discussion, but I just kind of feel sorry for the fact that I'm like, again, uh relying on the government to make your life better. It's like you shouldn't shouldn't be doing that. Shouldn't be thinking like that. It is what it is though, mate. It is what it is. But um, I don't know. I think I just remember like going back and I just remember when I'd sit when I saw more posts, especially on like Facebook back then when people would use Facebook more often and just the headlines, and I'm like, these are really yuck. And it became down to I understood obviously the algorithms, obviously, how you get lots of views and engagement, you get people angry. Yeah, that's the best way to do it. And sell your advertising. And sell your advertising and crap. And um, no one really cares how they make you angry. They're just happy that you're engaging and buying shit. Yeah, exactly. Which is um, I think people are starting to wake up a little bit to this because um, I don't know if you heard the case, I was it a week ago with that girl who sued Meta in YouTube. Did you read about that? Um America, this 20-year-old girl, um, I don't know, I can't remember all the details, but she sued them not for much money, but still a win, like six million dollars she she sued them for for like um mental health damages and stuff, because she'd been on the app since she was six and she developed like uh and like a lot of uh like I think anemia and like a few other like health conditions or something, like and then like body dysmorphia, but like um and we've talked about these things for a while, especially I think a lot of girls talk about this kind of stuff. But now it's like and it's and it's like oh these apps have been developed, which we also know have it have been developed to be addictive. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But it's like, oh you know, that's you know, they they create these algorithms because fucking you know that's what they do, but it's just like no, they make them deliberately addictive so you don't get off the platform and sell their advertising and shit. But the stuff you interact with, like, fuck, they don't care what it is. No, and it's like it's kind of nice seeing a little bit more pushback, I think, starting to happen now.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

I see it, I see it in AI, yeah. I see like the the strangest thing about AI so far, because it's like what I know about it and what I've been using it for and how it's been helping us with work and stuff like that is mind-blowing. But I'd say that like the average person in society hates AI. I'd say so. Main Street loves it, Main Street don't like it so much.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Yeah, I think what's what I like I find the goods and bads. I mean, I I have in like an e-commerce business, I have, and it's amazing for that. Oh my god, like absolutely incredible the things you can do with it and all the integrations, blah blah blah blah. You know, it can really see things from a perspective that I can't. It's like having like an amazing business coach employee working for you. But then if you're the average person, um, yeah, like what's it what's it really gonna do? And I think the other part that is how people use it for like therapy. That's kind of crazy. I've heard yeah, if you've read a few things about people using it to like try and sort out their relationship problems. I'm like, fucking hell, man.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Like, that's not all good. Yeah, I suppose it's different for different generations. Like lots of people I've talked to are like, yeah, well, yeah, you can talk to it and it starts to learn you, and then you can ask questions, and they're like, Why the fuck would I let a robot learn me? And I'm like, huh, that's interesting, because that's like the skeptical part coming out, and they're like, I'm not going near that shit.

SPEAKER_02 47:15

But then it also has all your information and all your it depends on what data you want. Like, I don't really give a fuck about AI having my business like business data. I'm like, eh, like it is it is it I'm not that bothered about it if it helps me grow it in some ways. I mean, obviously W doesn't fuck me over in some way, but but like I think I think when it comes to some of those other personal things, I'm like, ooh, like, yeah, that kind of freaks me out.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

If it gets big enough where it's like the size of something for a country to have national security importance, then you've got to think which way people would vote on it. Yeah. It feels like one of those types of things, right? It does, it does. Yeah, it feels like the tractor. Right, yes. You know, like farmers didn't like the idea of a tractor because they thought they'd have no work. Obviously it didn't turn out that way, but it got to a point where it's like, nah, we need to have regulation and vote around this, you know.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Of course, regulation. Yeah, but there's so many cases of that. I think one of my favorite ones um is like it was like was it the guy who invented the idea of like washing the hands, like for surgery? Have you heard about that story? Like, like the I can't remember the guy's name, but he everyone thought he was a madman. Yeah. Like it's like it's like, you know, we would save more lives if we like had the sanitary just the sanitary environment. And then do you hear about how I can't remember the guy's name, damn, but yeah, did you hear about how he died? He died from having like an infection, and then a doctor who was working on him also didn't wasn't working on like another corpse. Oh, and then he got like an infection and died. Wow, yeah, and then eventually everyone was like, Oh, actually, that's a good point. Yeah, we're in the closer. But again, it's just funny, it's like, oh, you want to wash your hands like it's witchcraft. Like, what the fuck? Just humans, they like with our skepticism of it. And it's like when even when the internet came around, same sort of concept. Everyone's like, this is a fucking scam. Like, what is this?

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Like, yeah, it feels like another version of the internet almost to me.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

It's a different internet.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

It is a different internet, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

So we'll see. Yeah, we'll see. I I think there are so many great things that can help with for business owners and even like employees to just help speed things up and like work and maybe take a lot of like you know, tasks off your create some productivity. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, I think it just how reliant you are on it, and then obviously, you know, we've had that whole you know, uh open AI losing a lot of uh stock at the moment because they're going with the military.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

Yeah, yeah, I cancelled my open AI subscription, not because of like anything they did, just because other AI is better. The other ones got better and I stopped using it, and I was like, why am I paying for this?

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Yeah, exactly. Everything's caught up. Yeah, but yeah, it's just like yeah, human skepticalism, but that's um also really like uh fascinating. Oh yeah, um, so last year got to change subject here, but got to meet you at the uh keep the change event at the Bruce May. That was really cool. Um it was a good night. What was the experience like kind of like reflecting back on it?

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Wild, wild, wild, yeah. I uh well didn't even need to reflect on it to be honest. It all happened like at the time, like I I don't know why, but going into it, I just like felt nothing. I was just like, oh it's just an event, we'll just rock up, have a yarn. Yeah, and I completely felt like that until like me and Luke we put our mics on backstage and went and sat on the couch behind the curtain. And when the curtain came up, I was like, Whoa, that's a lot of people, and that hit me like real hard, and I was like, Whoa shit. I'm like lucky I had Luke there because I would have had like a shaky voice. Um, but the nerves got me real good when that curtain came up, and it was probably because I sort of like was so blasé about the whole thing, you know, up until that point. Um, but it was epic, man. Like, you know, I said come and do photos after, and we stayed on stage and out in the thing doing photos for like another two hours. Like it was amazing. So, yeah, really cool. I really enjoyed that. I think Luke's especially is gonna like lean into more live stuff too, and like in real life, in-person stuff. So, yeah, you'll watch his space, there'll be more of that, which would be cool.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

Yeah, for sure. I think it's really nice to bring together bring people together who are trying to, you know, uh a similar thinking with trying to, yeah, like you said, help help themselves do some bigger things. For sure. You know, and in New Zealand, I think we we we really need it, and we need some positive encouragement, you know, like there's as like the fear-mongering that goes on. You guys talked about it I know in the podcast and stuff. Even in the storm, right? We just need we need a bit more positivity about like in Kiwis, like, yeah, you should try and do that. You should try and do something with your income and help yourself. You should try and maybe look into doing that business, or you should try a side hustle, and like that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Even just being told that it's like, yeah, it's hard. Like, I've had people come up to me and be like, um, they used to like say it's too hard, right? But now they just say it's hard and keep going, you know, like that's a big difference. Um, because it is hard to like earn more and do better and pay off more debt or buy another house or you know, go on that holiday and save up for it. Like that stuff's hard. But like, of course it's hard, doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Yeah, you know, like just get on with it. I think you know, if you turn up to a Keep the Change Live event, the coolest thing is is like relatively speaking, you're in the room with the same kind of people, you know, and that's a pretty rare room to be in, like, you know, a thousand people all there that are of that kind of mindset or developing that kind of mindset, you know, where it's okay to like keep going even though it's hard. Yeah. And that means that there's another, you know, there's a thousand other people in that room that like aren't gonna tell you that it's you shouldn't do that, it's a waste of time, or anything like that. Like that mindset in that room is gangster.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Yeah, I I I just think it's really important, especially now with I guess people kind of being more reserved on their screens in some ways, it's good to bring people together as much as like at the community events, you know, they're super fucking underrated.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

Oh, yeah, so underrated, especially if you have one where it's like a cool you know, I probably wouldn't turn up to the three news live event, you know, like that's not for me, because it'll be like doom and gloom and rubbish, and you know, I don't want to be in the room with the people that enjoy that kind of vibe. But if you can create that community that's like upbeat, keen to get going, keen to push ahead, there's hope for the future, want to create your own future, and you've got a thousand people or more of that type of person in a room, like good shit comes out of that, eh? Real good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 53:29

I think that's so fucking important in times like this. So that's why I I I gravitate towards it myself. And even like on this podcast, like I'm it's all kind of about talking to the dream chasers uh and people from all sorts of fields, obviously yourself and business, but then people like athletes and musicians or whatever it may be. And I think the big key thing I even just like try and like emphasize is like, yeah, it's just you just have to do it, man. Like nothing's scarier than getting older and being like, what if woulda, shoulda, coulda? Like that to me is really scary. Yeah, I don't I think that's like worse.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Yeah, if you get it, I mean, yeah, it's a funny one, isn't it? Like, uh yeah, if you if you try and fail, it's the same as not trying. So what's the cost? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:13

I think also reference to that podcast you guys did recently, but so many good parts of it was um also That was a banger idea. That was you guys did good, man. I'm just why I'm talking about it. Yeah, but it was also the part about like um the fear of not trying something. I can't I'm gonna butcher this and paraphrase it, but it was like the fear of not doing like trying something different. But it's like if you try and get like a stable job and be in a stable career, like that's actually not a thing. It's gonna like inflation's gonna affect it, and like that that that job might not even exist in a certain amount of time, or you get made redundant, and it's like, well, you get made redundant and now you want to make a change. But you could have made the change ages ago when you hated being at the company or you hated the job anyway. So that job or that career that you think is is it stable and comfortable? Like, is it actually? Yeah. And I really, yeah, again, podcast is a good man.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

But I also think that just like in general, um, we've probably been you know, like as governments like take more and more control and the public sector grows over time and they slowly devalue currency, they've like smoothed out volatility with all of that control. So everything has been pretty smooth for like quite a long time, and now all of a sudden in the last five to ten years, everything's got all volatile again. Like we ran out of runway of that of that smoothing of the vol. And now they like can't put the genny back in the bottle, and everything's like up, down, left, right all the time, you know. Got wars kicking off everywhere, you know. We've got pet like diesel at four dollars a litre. And are we all are we going back into recession? Is the next government gonna tax your assets? Like, what what's the income tax rate gonna be next year if if a new government gets in? Like, there's all of this like uncertainty and unknown, and we've forgotten how to deal with it because it's been so smooth for so long, and we haven't had any of like that uncertainty. And and I'm talking about like the previous like 30 years prior versus like the last decade or whatever, and like we get we're like relearning, being like, Oh shit. You just have to like adjust and get used to what this feels like and then just push through it, eh? Because it's it's more normal than you think, like to have all these problems.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

100%. I mean, even like um I guess even going back like a bit even before like the World War II. I mean, you just think about the like that the first half of the 20th century, fucking hell, like you know, you've got I mean World War One, you've got the Great Depression, you've got I mean whole and then a lot of other things I can't even remember all of them, but you know, that's again so volatile. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like and then afterwards it was like this kind of like not peaceful, but probably as peaceful as it has ever been in the world. Relatively, yeah, you know, relatively peaceful golden era. Um for the West, especially, like, and it's and now it's like all the things have come to fruition of like everything's crumbling.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think we just have to like be smarter, especially because of the access to information we've got now with our phones and computers and internet and everything. And we're not all on the same channel, like getting the same information anymore, you know. No, which is a good thing, which is a good thing. I think like democratising access to all information and all opinions and stuff like that is would probably be like a net positive versus being fed like propaganda from the one nation state channel, but um it's still we have to be more like critical thinkers and be like, what's the incentive behind this piece of information getting to me? Yeah, who's giving the information? Yeah, why it works, why am I receiving it?

SPEAKER_02 57:30

Who owns that news network? Why are they pushing that narrative? Yeah, you know, is it because they're trying to, you know, push like their own agenda? What is the agenda? Yeah. And just have to be like But you're right, I think it is better. Um, but also comes down to like at the other part of like also using search engines, right? Like are you searching on Google or you're searching on some AI and it's like, oh, why are they giving me that information? Why are these ones at the top? Like, oh you know, that was um, I think during the voting in the in in the states for like the last election, like um if you were searching up voting booths for like Kamala, it would show you on Google where to go and like give you like you know obvious places in like your state, uh, but if you search up Trump, it wouldn't show you as as like an example. Um not that wild, it's crazy, but again, it's like search engines are also you know yeah, it's owned by a company, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:17

And they have their own agenda, so it's like Yeah, we just have to be like more alert and aware to our surroundings and be deliberate about what we're doing for our own lives.

SPEAKER_02 58:27

Yeah, yeah, and I I think that but it's just bombarded with like bomb, I think. It's how to avoid, yeah. How to not get overwhelmed with the bomb being bombarded with so much shit. So I'm trying to get I'm trying to get better of like using my phone more purposefully, you know. I was watching um this guy, I think it was like BBC or CNN, one of those like presenters, he's like, Oh, I did like a week off having my smartphone, I got like an old flip phone again, and he went to like some um I don't know, like some some some brain uh uh scanner, like this lady who like looks at like brain development and like his reaction time got better from not using the smartphone for a certain amount of time and all these bit cognitive kind of benefits that kind of came through. And then um he said, Oh, I have a chair in my house now where I go and sit and use the smartphone. And I'm like, maybe I'm like that sounds pretty good. Like I was thinking about that because when I get on the phone, like sometimes I'm like fuck, and I'm just suddenly lost in my own algorithm, my own crap, my own echo chamber, and then um I want to go on there and do something positive, maybe it's to post something, or maybe see what my friends or other people who I like following are doing, and then I end up in some fucking like brain rot rubbish, like oh yeah, 100%, man. It happens to everyone, yeah. And it's like, man, I really want to like stop doing that, but I again like it's like a f it feels like a fucking cigarette addiction.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

It's it's like it's even crazier because I went through a period I'm like, I'm gonna get like one of those old phones that you can only text and call on, and I'll when I leave work in the in the evening, I'll use that so I stay off the apps and shit. And then uh it's going through my head and I'm like, oh all of the guys at work have me on like a messenger app or like a Gmail chat or a Slack or whatever, and if they contact me, I won't see that till the morning. But if it's something important, I like that's the company not benefiting of me, not doing that, so I shouldn't do that. So I keep the phone, and then the next thing you know, like even when it comes to investments, you'll like see something on the news that night, and because you've got your smartphone, you look at like the share price and it's falling, and do you sell or do you buy? Everyone's like, sell, sell, sell, yeah, and you're like, so but how unhealthy is that? And then you and then you're like, oh, I better go on to I don't know, Twitter or something and like check what's happening with the guys over in the States that know about this product or stock that I've bought, and you look at that and it's like fuck all this. Like, I just want to turn this off. So it is bad. Um, but it came from me being like, no, I need to be able to contact my guys because it's all in one place, you know. Like I've got this centralized fucking hand tablet that's like got everything on it my whole life. Yeah, it's hard to deny and close off.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:55

Yeah, it's just getting bit like trying to find better ways of managing our time and just it sucks time as well. Like, and yeah, it doesn't even mean to be, you know. I see I see like some funny videos of like it's like a I think like a trend people were doing of like someone like their friend like is dying or something and they open up their phone to call like the ambulance, but if they end up on reels, like oh shit, bro, but I forgot. Oh, that's funny because it's so true. Oh dear, and it's just like yeah, that's that's the fucking world room. Yeah, that's the world we live in. Yeah, yeah. Um since you're a business owner, a couple more questions for you, but I wanted to also ask you being your own boss versus being an employee, the pros and cons, uh just some some high-level stuff that you can elaborate.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

I can I I I can personally only ever be self-employed again now. Like I'll I'll never be able to go back. Um but there are some very heavy costs, like especially during the start-up and the early periods of what you want to do. Like, you know, I went from catching up with like a certain group of friends two or three times a week having bears and stuff to like not seeing them for five years. So you've got to be okay with that. Um I had to sell property, downgrade prior property and sell whatever, like move houses, go renting, and all of this kind of stuff. All these all of these things that people would be like, oh, this is the cons list versus the pros list. Um but the reality is is like I can't go back now. Like once once you're in deep enough and you create enough success, like the fact that I can't get in trouble for turning up whenever I want is like prices to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:33

You know, the personal freedom to be able to obviously there's only you are in charge of how much work gets done at the end of the day for the company of how it grows and that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:40

So full personal responsibility, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

And some people I I don't think can handle that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

Yeah, probably not. Um there is like there is some value in like you know, turning up at nine, leaving at five, and not thinking about what's happening with the company and what's going wrong and stuff like that, I guess. But I don't know. I just think it's a small price to pay now. It wasn't at the start to get going and get it off the ground and everything. But once you've done it for a while and you can generate some success out of it, like yeah. There's all there's always uh boss, yeah, you know, like gotta pay tax. Yeah, yeah, the IRD. Yeah, I'm the boss. Yeah, and there's always, you know, regulators and stuff and and things like that in compliance, and but you know, the the freedom of time, like you know, we've got nearly 50 people in my company, and no one would know if I turned up at midday. You know, like it doesn't matter, and I wouldn't know if they turned up. Like we run the same rules, I run the same rules on them as I like for me. So people have complete freedom and autonomy as as advisors, insurance or financial advisors at Guardian. Um there's expectation around like being successful and doing a good job. And obviously the work needs to be done. Yeah, but I don't care if you know you're doing it from the beach up north or whatever, like it just doesn't matter. So yeah, I think the freedom aspect of it is is like a no-brainer for me, which is like impossible. You know, I'd end up in a fight if I turned up at 9 30 at a at a at a job and someone told me off. Because my my view is like, well, I'm actually also only gonna be here for an hour because I'll be finished all the work by then. Yeah. And if someone said, well, you've you're not allowed to leave until 5 30 now, I'd punch them. You know, I can't deal with that stupidity.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:22

Yeah, it's also just like um I I love looking at like um like company politics is fascinating to me. I find it really interesting, like small companies to big ones, and I've got my experience and I can't talk about talk about all of them right now. But um, I find it like with how a lot of it just comes down to power play and people just you know who get into middle management, you hear all these horror stories and stuff about how people get managed and man if uh and like micromanaged to such a point, and it's just like man, like it's like it's not even about um the work getting done, it's not even about the job, it's like someone just having hands like and it also gets it gets quite deep, I find, with for some people, and I've I've been with some people like this I've worked with who end up in middle management positions who try and manipulate you in some ways to get what they want from you, and they have that control at work, and they act kind of like like a shit shithead, right? But then it's like in their own personal life, it's a fucking mess. And that I've seen that's that's a bit of a trend I've seen. And what I've I find it interesting because it's like so these people don't have much control in their own lives, so the only place they can have some control is at work because of their title, yeah, and then maybe they get shit on by the upper management or something, but because they've got like a team under them, they can just fucking say whatever they want and treat people very horribly, yeah. And that's a quite a common thing. And I I'm like, that's I know it really fascinates me. And also like how people can use like company values against you, or you know, how people try like, oh, I don't like this person, not because they can't do a good job, but just because I just don't really like them, so I'm just gonna like try and force force them out in some way. I find all that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

stuff quite it I find it like interest shitty but I find it I find it interesting because it's a lot of it's I think we put too much like value like too much value on like the title of like what a what a manager is or something right 100% the fact is is like I think that like leaders like naturally rise up and then they just become leaders because they lead by example and and when you get like big big companies and stuff you know I do see it now that we're getting to a the size that we're getting to like one of our leadership team will come to me and be like oh we've noticed that one of the guys is buying Guardian Smith Google AdWords should we tell them not to do it and I'm like no they if they want to pay for it that's fine and they're like yeah but that pushes up our ad words I'm like it's a free fucking market. Like I should go and tell that person to go and do more if he wants to create like more work for himself like that's a good thing that benefits everyone you know like and it like why do why does that person think like that? I didn't train them to think like that. It's because they've got like a title you know so you do see stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:59

PP people get threatened. I think that's the other thing as well like people get threatened in certain roles when someone else is maybe doing very well like they're creating value and trying to up themselves and so someone like yourself who's an entrepreneur you're like yeah that's great. I love it when people want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

Yeah but I think people get confused that their title is the value not them so that's a good point. They think that that because I am Mr Manager like I I that is the value where it's not like the value comes from how good a fucking job you can do. Yeah. But that's uh I know it's not how it's not how it works in lots of places.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:32

It's not how it works in lots of places. But it's interesting. I just I I find it fascinating the power people give themselves when they have that title yeah in in some shape or form or just believe that yeah they can I don't know just treat people kind of crap. I don't really get it. Um it's just a job title a job role at the end of the day. Yeah I think true leadership comes from leading by example eh 100% but we can all say that shit I mean I mean I'm I'm saying that I've been around people who say it and then I'm like your actions say something else. But uh yeah you're right I that stuff breaks down eventually though right like um yeah I mean obviously all the all the people will come and companies start going down the toilet and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:14

But people either get held accountable or they don't for those actions so but um yeah just in my work experience I've seen it the bigger a company gets too like generally like it's growing while the founder or the owner or the entrepreneur involved is like growing each stage of it so they move up and up and up and as they get bigger and bigger they create layers between like the bottom and the top which is what you have to do you're forced to um and what happens is you end up like so far at the top as as the founder or becoming the CEO or whatever that the distance between you and the bottom where you started has become quite far and you get disconnected from it and that allows like room for a bad actor or someone with the wrong attitude to somehow get a job that you didn't know about and like what you're talking about with management or whatever and the boss won't even know. Because if the boss knew that person would be fucking out the door because he knew what it took to be in that role because he probably did it. You know there's not many companies that like the boss just invented and it became a billion dollars like normally it's like brute force for the start period and they learn everything on the way and um like yeah eventually that stuff breaks down but there is heaps of it around but you know if you're in one of those companies just leave.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:29

Yeah the boss will see it eventually when everyone's fucking leaving yeah 100% but um it's hard when you're in those and in those stages and I think I guess like we're talking about recession mindset and how difficult things are for a lot of people where there's you know there's a lot of fear with being like oh like if I leave like there's gonna be something else like can I you know is it gonna be something else available and uh so yeah I just kind of feel for for people who end up in those positions and also don't understand like the the like the things they can do like maybe if it is to like a personal grievance or something you know help themselves out um you know because you know no one should be treated like yeah I mean the on Reddit there's always those crazy stories and and I think yeah lots of stories about that. Alright man I'll give you one more um so with all your experience uh I kind of want to go a bit a bit more to the beginning of your journey probably before you end up where you are but what was something you did personally early on in your career uh that made managing your finances easier um probably not something I did but something my parents did so like dad taught me how to buy something and then sell it for more sick yeah sounds basic but he was like you know he taught me like the value of you know I'm gonna buy this bike we'll tidy it up make it clean and tidy and then when you sell it one day it should have held its value at least and then you can go and buy your next bike so he taught me that lesson and then that was like a real big one because if you look at all of my cars my office everything is always tidy and mint like everything's tidy.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:09

Sometimes I look scruffy but all of my shit's always mint and it and it like it's probably saved me hundreds of thousands of dollars. Like whenever I sell a car I get top dollar you know like I every time because everything I do is always like mint as so that was like a real good lesson. And then the other one was like once I started working even just as like a paper on um mum recognized that I'd be like any other 11 year old like making 80 bucks a week I'd go and like to the dairy and spend it. And she would just be like put half with me and I'll look after it and I ran that until I was like 19 or 20 or something. Oh nice. Yeah so I just saved half or like and I would nag her and be like I need money out of my account and stuff and she'd give it to me sometimes but basically it was like a barrier. So there was there was like a um embarrassment factor of of having to ask for it because it means there was proving to her that I had gone spent the rest of what I did. Yeah yeah yeah so that worked quite well on me. Awesome yeah and I'm I'm like a real good saver now like I well I'm a real good spender actually I don't spend fuck all like when I do spend like I'll spend a lot be a big spend yeah I'll I'll happily go and spend like a hundred grand on a car or 25 grand on an overseas trip and I'll make the decision and I'll spend it in 30 seconds but I also like day to day I basically I don't know I live on like a couple hundred dollars a week it's pretty normal.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:35

No awesome man hey man I really appreciate you coming through and all good mate thank you for having me it's been really awesome have you got anything you want to shout out before we head off or any final words?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:44

No not really just hang in there guys and keep going and if you do want any uh financial advice around mortgages insurance and Kiwi Saver and stuff like that come see us. So yeah thank you. How are you dude? Thanks so much for listening and thank everyone for um yeah awesome cool awesome cheers