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Only Scott
The Only Scott podcast is a podcast created and hosted by Scott McDonald-Bull.
Scott is based out of Auckland New Zealand and regularly uploads podcasts with guests discussing their passions and pursuits. New episodes every second Tuesday.
Only Scott
EP #92 - Mista Ed & Inside Trading - Music Producers
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Great yarn with producers Mista Ed (Ed Williams) and Inside Trading (John Faulding). We got really nerdy and dove into hip/hop sampling, music production, DJing, and beat-making.
Some awesome takes on the creative process, like finishing music fast, resisting overproduction, and taking inspiration from sounds from all over the world.
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Mista Ed's Spotify Profile (Ed Williams)
Mista Ed Instagram (Ed Williams)
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Meet Mr Ed And Inside Trading
SPEAKER_05And I'm here with Mr.
SPEAKER_06Id and Inside Trading producers, musicians, and creators. It's awesome to be here. Finally, we kind of put it off a few weeks, but uh well, months.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I think we organized this for October the last year. Did we really? Yeah, that's insanity. Well, life gets in the way. Life, life, life happens. But we're here now. That's what's important. And uh very excited to have you guys here. So I obviously I know Jum very well. Jum's been on the podcast before. We spoke more about his musical journey, especially with touring around the States and his band, and then he's in Lost Vessels. But also does a lot of production with hip-hop sampling. And then Mr. Ed here, who first time I've met Mr. Ed, and he's uh a bit of a guru and been been round the scene for a few minutes.
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't say guru. You wouldn't say guru? No, I've just been around a while.
SPEAKER_05Just been around a while.
SPEAKER_06Just yeah. What at what point do you qualify for Grandmaster as a turntable? Grandmaster turntable? I was like, I wouldn't know. Okay. Yeah. That's uh that's certainly that's certainly on the cards in the future though, potentially.
SPEAKER_01I th uh different age. Different age. I think you'd probably have to be in the 60s for that, really. Yeah, in the 70s. Yeah, triple OG stuff. Triple OG. Yeah.
House Roots And First Scratches
SPEAKER_05Um, what really got you into uh loving to scratch, sample, and DJ? Like, do you remember like a like a song you heard and you were like, what is that? It's really awesome, I want to try and do that.
SPEAKER_01So, yeah. North of England is where I grew up, and we weren't really sort of exposed to hip-hop at all. Um, especially in the early 90s, which was when I was like kind of I've been scratching since about 91. Um yeah. So I actually started on a I've told this story before on another podcast, so tell it again. Tell it again. But it's uh I've I've heard other people say this, so it must be quite a common thing for for kids, you know, from where I'm from basically. But I I used to have a hi-fi turntable with you know tape and radio and turntable on the top, and I started scratching on that using the left and right speaker pan for on and off. So it was like mono scratching in one ear. That's crazy, yeah. Yeah, and I was a kid, little kid, you know, I'd have been 91, I'd have been 11, right? So it's that was the the time when um piano house was kicking off in the UK, and that's really what we were sort of exposed to at that time, kind of Italio disco sort of stuff. But there was a local DJ, um Tony Ross, uh Bradford guy, and he was scratching on on house, and it was at that point on these tape packs that we used to sort of trade at school, it was like, holy shit, what is that, you know? So my first experience with it was over house, so I thought that's just what it was. So for years I was a house DJ, or like collecting house records up until like the late 90s, really.
SPEAKER_06Um but you didn't even know that about you, bro. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05It was house was because yeah, I don't know too much about the history of house, but where did that is it originally from? I thought that like just from like Europe, I just thought is it oh is it Detroit?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, originally, but there's a few different strands in Europe for sure.
What Makes House And Hip-Hop Tick
SPEAKER_05Oh okay, yeah, different flavours of it. Like who came up with like I guess the when I think of like the you know, like the typical was it boots and cats beat?
SPEAKER_06It'd be I mean, my understanding is like uh in the eighties, people like Derek May and so on in Detroit getting hold of like the role on 808 and the 909 and basically creating beats and making extended long versions of of tracks and um basically dance floor. It's it's obviously kind of evolved from disco, which is a four-to-the-floor beat thing as well. Um there's so many evolutions of house. Yeah, I mean you could spend three hours just talking about that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, sure. So much. But I'm just I'm just trying to get a gauge of it to like when you heard it. So the what was the strand that you heard? Piano house. So to piano house, but is that from like UK or is that uh the American So it's European stuff?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. Interesting. And and lots of English stuff as well, actually. But yeah, it was um yeah, so I kind of got into it in a in a roundabout sort of way, really. So it was it was the late 90s that I understood it was actually a hip-hop thing.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01So I was suddenly like, oh shit, this is what I've been doing for the last five or six years, you know? It's like, oh shit. So I kind of transitioned onto hip-hop after that, really. But it was um yeah, it was not the usual way around of people getting into hip-hop and scratching from the start, you know. That's still cool though.
SPEAKER_05So then, like uh what so what was so then that transition then in the late 90s, what was the artist you heard or the track where you heard like a uh sort of influence due to just kind of crossovers, so there was that whole hip house thing, sort of 80 eight, eighty-nine, I think, really.
SPEAKER_01So a lot of the house stuff back then was people were playing hip house. I don't know if you know no.
SPEAKER_06Imagine like rapping over a house speak, yeah, like Punk Pop the Jam, sort of that would be kind of that vein, right?
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah, yeah. Like Doug Doug Lazy and you know, there's a few other people, and and there was certain hip-hop records that had house mixes, like the Doc portrait of a masterpiece was one I remember getting, and people were cutting over that. But yeah, it's um yeah, I I wouldn't be able to pinpoint it really.
SPEAKER_06I think it's quite an interesting um thing that you started on that because uh a lot of people will probably be aware that house is sort of like four to the floor, it's like uns, ounce, ounce, and it's like typically sort of 120 to 140 beats a minute.
SPEAKER_01It was kind of slower back then as well, right?
SPEAKER_06And then hip hop is like from a tempo point of view, about 70 or 80 or 90 beats a minute typically. So there's a massive gulf there in terms of your actual technical side, surely, like what you how did that transition for you, like learning to scratch, I guess, slower?
SPEAKER_01It was easier.
SPEAKER_06Easier, yeah.
Sampling’s Rise And The Golden Era
SPEAKER_01I remember going to um a a guy's house when I was living in Leeds who was a hip-hop DJ and was one of the first sort of proper hip-hop DJs that I'd I'd met. A guy from Sheffield. Um, yeah, and I was we're sort of comparing notes, what mixes we each had, and all this sort of stuff. And it was my real first time sort of properly cutting over underground hip-hop shit, and I was just nailing this guy, and he was just like, What the fuck? It was just yeah, it was it was much much easier for me to translate. I think it'd be harder going the other way, yeah. But not that people scratch on house these days, you know. It was I think the the deal really was that in the 90s a lot of the house DJs were probably old hip-hop DJs, right? So they had the hip-hop skills and then they were playing house all of a sudden, and then it was still scratching over house, right? Yeah, but yeah, that's um it's I think it's pretty specific to where I'm from, really, or north of England, sort of that just the the timeline of the influence of music for people.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, well, a pretty rich part of the world for music in general, right?
SPEAKER_01I guess maybe not specifically Bradford, but definitely not Bradford. In this room, you're very well represented. I'm not I'm not hating on the Bradford music saying it's got its own thing going on, but yeah, it's I guess north of England you you're not really s exposed to certain things that you other people were, you know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so and then so what when did you the the I went on your Spotify and had a look and like the first track you released was in 2004? Was that the first song you'd ever made, or had you made tracks before that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so the first piece of music I made was probably '99. Um, and that got on a um Do you know SoulSeq?
SPEAKER_06I don't know. Do you know SoulSeq? Absolutely, it's like the pre-Napster or around it's basically Napster. Yeah, okay. Yeah. It was DJs mainly, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So SoulSeq were running a competition which was like a worldwide music production competition, and I entered this track that I'd done, and it was all scratching. And at that point, SoulSeek was primarily EDM stuff, right? So we're talking 90 2000 probably. And I didn't even think about it and like came back to SoulSeek like years later and found out I'd come third in this competition and subsequently it'd been put out uh on the uh an album, the SoulSeek compilation album. I think that was like 2001, but I didn't even know anything about it.
SPEAKER_06That was crazy, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So there's you you'll find um on the Spotify, Mr. Ed and Mr. Ed, that's from that, but it was that was actually a college project.
SPEAKER_06Wow.
SPEAKER_01And I I hate it, it's it's like the most basic of produced things, but you know, that's part of the history of what I've done, and but yeah, so that was that was the first thing. And then um did a track for the Return of the DJ series, which is um bomb hip hop USA, um Dave Paul. Um so that was uh a compilation series of different scratch DJs throughout the year. So the the first one had DJ Shadow, DJ Cubert, people like that. And I was I was on DJ Shadow, yeah, yeah. So um I was on the volume five and it was kind of towards the end of the series, really, but that was 2003, so I kind of got a bit of recognition in the scene for that because I'm I'm not a battle DJ, right? So a lot of turntable listener scratches kind of make their mark in the battle scene, and that's not what I do, so it's it's always been about more the production side of it, really. So um it was nice to get some recognition in the the scene and get that sign in, you know, to say that people respected what I was doing, which is you know, it was great.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it's a pretty esteemed company to be in there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man, you know for sure, for sure. Um but yeah, so first stuff I done was probably 99-2000. Yeah. So it's a while ago.
SPEAKER_05But the I guess like uh I'm trying to think like the evolution of like from like the early 90s to late 90s of uh of DJing and sampling, like so much, there must have been so so much evolution so quickly, right? Like because it was getting used. I've well, I guess when I look at like hip-hop and that there was sampling being used in the 80s, but I felt like the it evolved so much in the 90s that was when like the true evolution came in.
SPEAKER_06Sure. With the genre. I think part of that is I mean, you'd be naive to think it wasn't technology that was behind a lot of that. I mean, samplers in the 80s typically sample times of less than a second sometimes, but but you could make an entire album of that if you're creative enough, like in your Wu-Tangs and so on, would I people you in the 80s people using that kind of well that drum I think Run DMC, right?
SPEAKER_01It was more that sort of drum machine sound. The sampling wasn't as about as well, I mean it's it was sort of starting, I suppose, but it was more kind of electronic really in the eighties, right? But then the nineties came about and that whole um sort of sampling soul and funk and the the the sound of it changed, right? And that the gold but people refer it to the golden era, right? Of hip hop. I'm not sure about that really, but it's that's for me where all the best stuff has come from. People are still doing that sound. I think more so these days, I think it's sort of coming back in a way, but it's um yeah, yeah.
Amen Breaks, Lawsuits, And Legacy
SPEAKER_05I know that um at that time just the I watched like a I can't watch like some YouTube little documentary and just like George Clinton just filing lawsuits left, right, etc. against all these producers and DJs because he got sampled so much.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I think a lot of people teach us about it. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Didn't it didn't the um Amen Break guy, the the uh the Winstons, didn't they they got some royalties recently or something?
SPEAKER_06I think so, yeah. So if you're not familiar with the Amen Break, it's um like the the most sampled drum break of all time, and it's um it's all over drum and bass and jungle, but it's slowed down and it's in hundreds and hundreds of hip-hop songs as well. It's on literally thousands of songs, Beastie Boys, it's in the sound of drum and bass, right? Yeah, it's the sound of drum and bass. Um yeah you'd know it, you can Google Amen break if you want to hear it. But basically I I believe the the guy the drummer from the Winstons, which which is the sort of group that made it in the seventies, I think, um, was kind of uncredited for years, decades, about and despite his the fact that his his drum break, his specific drumming was on literally thousands of you know top forty songs.
SPEAKER_01How do you ever go back on that as well?
SPEAKER_05How do you ever sort of reclaim when it's just so ubiquitous, right? As they manipulated and changed thousands of times, yeah, I suppose so. I thought the other drum beat that was heavily sampled a lot was uh when the levy Yep, that's when the Livy breaks.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, the Liz track. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05I thought that's got taken and ripped apart a bunch too.
SPEAKER_06Big time that's in that vein.
SPEAKER_01I think Army and Break would would dwarf it in terms of like the uses. Yeah, just and used across genres, right? It's not specific to any one thing, is it?
SPEAKER_06You know, yeah, there's like portacy songs that use it. There's all sorts of you know, trip hop and hip hop and yeah, yeah, all sorts of different genres. It's pretty breaks as well. So like every every tempo kind of strata you can imagine, that they've used it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's that's wild. I was watching I watched a really cool video of um um because I the only one of my favourite electronic groups is the Prodigy, so I used to love uh like seeing watching how they pieced together their songs, and I just was just like, oh my god, I did not realize they got like you know so much going on, so much happening and all the different the way they manipulate the samples, and I was like because I mean that's when the at the at that time period there's a lot of arguments about the sampling. Like, is it music? Are you copying it? Like, is it actually you know, like a viable, I don't know, yeah.
SPEAKER_06That's right. Um, and then you know, these days it's kind of come full circle when people sampling the one that sampled the one that sampled the one that sampled, right? So it's this giant, like is the snake's like eating its own tail kind of thing in the terms of the sampling world in some ways.
SPEAKER_05It is so strange though, but I guess like um I guess at the time it was just so new. I mean, like if I if you wrote a song, right, say like George Clinton, and then you like listen to like some rapper and you're just like, isn't that my guitar? And then you're just like, wait a minute.
SPEAKER_06Things like horn stabs and stuff are like always stolen from things because no one wants to hire a horn section to do like three notes in your chorus, right? So it's like, oh I'll use that one from that random James Brown like record, and um then you gotta someone sues you six months later.
SPEAKER_05Yay! But YouTube still goes pretty crazy on that stuff these days. Like, if you I mean not sampling such, but I just think like the copyright, because that's still kind of open, like what defines copyright? Because people get taken down for covers and things all the time, which I find like this is odd.
SPEAKER_01Well, the Spotify I've just introduced it's quite worrying, I think, in some ways, like the um sample credit. Have you heard about this? No, so now now they've introducing something that happens automatically. I uh believe that it identifies the things that you've sampled and then credits the songs that you've sampled somehow. So it's like the main element or that you know comes from this song. Yeah, it's like, oh shit.
SPEAKER_06I mean the internet's great for like the the website Who Sampled I use all the time to find uh you know specific things, uh you know, what used this or what has this been used in, or you know, vice versa. I think um as technology evolves, you're right, it's like things like Spotify can just identify that on the fly. Um there's definitely some of the tracks that's well Shazam, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. When that game came out, it's just like what the hell? That's cool. You know, but it's that same tack, right?
AI Tools, Ethics, And Real Skill
SPEAKER_05So yeah, I guess like a hot topic right now, we may as well talk about it, is where music is right now. And I even like with DJing and sampling, how's that been affected by AI? Has it been affected by it? And this episode is sponsored by me. Do you struggle with sleeping and particularly struggle with light and sound while sleeping? I think it's time you get the sleep that you deserve. My business, Infinity Sleep, specializes in sleep well-being products to enhance your sleep quality. I've been using sleep masks and airplugs for the past three years to help improve my sleep, and I'm so stoked to finally have ones that have been created for my own sleeping needs. If you would like to learn more about my business, Infinity Sleep, please visit our website www.infinitysleep.co dot nz. By making a purchase, you are directly not only supporting a local HE business, but also this podcast. Use the promo code only scott fifteen percent and receive fifteen percent off your first order. Go to www.infinitysleep.co dot nz to get the sleep that you deserve.
SPEAKER_06I think uh it depends uh in terms of production. AI is a useful tool in some ways in terms of stem separation and things like that. If you're wanting to pull a vocal out of something, pull an archipella off a track and then throw it over your remix, not strictly legal sometimes, but um that side of it is you know, it's like any tool can be used creatively or it can be absolutely bastardized, and yeah, that's my opinion on it. In terms of the DJing side, I'll let you take handle that question.
SPEAKER_01I I don't think it's affected DJing at all. Uh uh at its current point, you know. Um I don't see how it w would. Maybe it would, maybe in terms of actual the sort of DJing sets, maybe, but turntablism and things and you know, scratching and stuff. Um I mean people have been able to replicate scratches for a while, right? So there's certain software that does it and kind of emulates it a bit, but it doesn't do it really. And I hear it in people's productions and tracks and stuff where they're not actually the it's not right, you know, and it's most most people won't know, right? But it's just like for me, I'm just like, man, that's just wrong, you know. It's it's or it's not possible or something, or yeah, but yeah, it's it's interesting. I think the we were just chatting about this actually, the the whole um you know, Suno thing, you know, you can just type what you want to hear, and there's the song at the end of it. It's like that's crazy, you know. So even think that that's possible is just wild. But I I honestly I don't know. It's I I can't imagine myself sit down there, oh I know, I'm just gonna put on a song that I've prompted.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. I think if you recognise the fact that you're not really a musician if you're just typing a prompt, um, that's not what music is. Music is always and has always been um artistic as an endeavour, and it's about hard work and it's about practice, and I think turntablism is a perfect example of that. You cannot just buy a turntable in a mixer and like in six months become a an amazing script.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it takes it it takes four or five years to learn the basics and then ten years to sort of at least you know to get those basics sort of sounding good, you know.
SPEAKER_06And I think as we're both guitarists, we know that as well, right? You gotta any instrument, absolutely hundred percent.
SPEAKER_05Yeah but what's been interesting we're talking about before as well, and we're having outside is about the is for people who just want the end result, right? Like I just you know, we talk about the process, you know, you're making the art, the blood, sweat, and tears, what it means. You know, as musicians and that we you know, appear artistic people and uh other people do care, but with a lot of people who don't, they just hear like something catchy or they just hear something like uh pleasing to the ears as such.
SPEAKER_01Well peop people listen to music for different reasons, exactly, you know, so it's I think probab I don't know what the percentage, but say 70% of people just like music and they they're not really into it per se, they like it, but and but they like every single genre and different songs from each genre, and yeah. I think the more sort of pinpointed you get, the more sort of strict that you become with the criteria of what you're listening to, right? So it's like my sort of uh lens of what I listen to is quite shallow, really, in it, but deliberately so, you know. I'm sort of trying to hone in on on certain sounds in my own listening. But I'd I'd never sit and listen to AI generated stuff. It's I just I don't think I would. Maybe I do already, and I just don't know. But it's I think it's a funny one. I don't I can't imagine either have said the same thing to you, but it's I can't imagine going to an art gallery and looking at like admiring AI art prints. It's I was in a different thing.
SPEAKER_06I was in a um hospital uh waiting room lobby uh about six months ago, um like a medical centre, not a hospital. And they were playing AI music like in the in the waiting room, and it was so bizarre. And no, like like you say, no one noticed. There's like 30 people in there, no one's bats an eyelid, and like I'm then like within like two minutes, I'm like, this is not right. Yeah, this music is not it sounds weird.
SPEAKER_01Big brands are using that on YouTube adverts right now. Um you know, not gonna mention them, but it's there's certain adverts for big businesses now that are sort of selling products on YouTube, and it's AI music. I can tell it is because it's just weird and trippy, and it's like no no one in the history of ever producing anything would produce that.
SPEAKER_06It's uh it's a funny world uh time we we live in, and you know, this you know, when drum machines came, I'm sure there were drummers that were having the same conversation about is drumming gonna die, and you know that it's cyclical, right? All of these technologies come and people get um a little bit weirded out by them and then they like some of them fade and some of them, you know. There's there's never gonna be a replacement for um art and and hands-on endeavours and creative um people, humanity.
Why Process Beats The Product
SPEAKER_01And and also people buy into the person too, right? You know, they they they buy into the brand of the person that's a story, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, the artists are what the artist is about, where they come from, what influenced the track, like otherwise it's just I put in a prompt, like sure. You know there's no there's no substance to that.
SPEAKER_01No, and you can't relate to it, you know. Well, yeah, I mean you can the end product was the same, but it's it's for me, it's always about not always, but more about the the the person and the process of what they do, and particularly for what I'm sat there doing. I don't care about any of the noise of AI, it doesn't make any difference to me at all. The the reason that I like the the production is the process, right? It's this the the the end product is the result of the process, and it's the process that's the thing.
SPEAKER_06So I couldn't agree more. I um really love like having an hour or two in the studio to myself. There's really only one person that's gonna get anything out of that, and that's me. Exactly. I actually don't give a crap about what other people think of of the music or the end result, and sometimes it never even seems the light of the day, of course. Like most producers, there's a whole folder full of crap that never gets out. But like it's the the process itself, like Ed says, is like the number one thing. It's such a um like it's such a relaxation, stress relief for me. It's such a fun um way that I can have fun and like morph sounds and mess around.
SPEAKER_01I I I I kind of refer to it as as therapy, right?
SPEAKER_07Totally.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's it's always been there for me in one way, shape, or form, and it never won't be, I guess, unless I lose my hearing on my. hands or something, but it's yeah, it's um definitely therapeutic and one of the only things that I found that can take me away into another mental space, right? The the zone or you know flow state sort of stuff, you know, it's um yeah.
SPEAKER_06I think um just bringing it back to your background and obviously you've put out a bunch of you know music solo as well and now we're doing collab stuff as well which is cool. The workflow that we have together um is quite unique in some ways. We don't really work in the same room together at all. Um but we hang out and listen to the tracks and talk about everything and but I I love squirreling around away with my guitar and my synths and stuff in my room and putting stuff on beats that he's carefully created and then putting it together he'll tweak things I'll tweak things. It's a really interesting way and it it really suits me. I I because I can get real caught up in oh this snare is not right or whatever and I kind of we sort of split the workflow quite a lot and that's what I love about that process.
A Two-Room Workflow That Works
SPEAKER_01Yeah it's a I think the um the the sort of brief that I gave to John at the start was like don't think about it just record things as quick as you can yeah and then it's such a good brief like it's such a refreshing brief rather than having to fuss over the little details. Don't don't tidy it up don't even do any just do whatever comes to your mind first and that's probably the best choice that you're gonna make. Yeah. You know even if you don't get the perfect take it's still the vibe is going to be there because it's like that instant sort of feeling and then I I end up working with the rest of it and there's been certain things that we've done when John sent me things and he's like really struggled with it. And it's like I can sort of hear that you have but this is this tiny little bit here that's like maybe something that you weren't even thinking of using of like okay that's the bit that little nugget exactly I love that man like nine times out of ten you're right the first time I just go through it and lay something down it's totally stream of consciousness.
SPEAKER_06Yeah that's the one that we keep yeah and I can send him an 18 minute version or like or 12 different solos over that one thing and he'll be like nah the first one you did is fine. Like I'm just gonna use that the first three quarters of that and then like tidy it up at the end and like I don't have the patience sometimes to like filter through all my different takes and do that whereas he's like quite good at just going not fresh airs I'm gonna choose that like I know what you mean like I um I I realize I could never be a um like a producer for a band or even musicians.
SPEAKER_05Even for myself I'm real bad at it because like you said going through the take after take after take after take and then being like you got like 20 guitar takes of one part you got more guitar layers or got vocals and it's just like and I think I don't have the patience you're right man it's just such a patience game.
SPEAKER_06We do make uh music obviously solo as well we do our own thing and that I that's an enjoyable part of of what I do as well but there's like I don't know how to scratch and he doesn't know how to play guitar so we when we work well as far as I know you don't so we don't badly I can play when we work together we like fill each fill the gap for each other which is so good like and you play each other's strengths.
SPEAKER_01Yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah that's a really good combo to have yeah I think I'm a little bit I'm a little bit like John I think when you're saying that you know you wouldn't have the patience to do that I think that's something that you kind of come to learn I remember spending years obsessing over the sound of a hi hat you know and spending two days just tweaking a like a symbol or something it's just like what am I doing? Yeah you know it's just like you know but you can you can do that especially early on in the game and you're really trust trying to sort of you have an idea in your head and you're trying to reach that idea but you'll probably never get that idea right so it's I think the I think being brutal and being quick is something that you learn later on in the game.
SPEAKER_05After all that experimentation.
SPEAKER_01Sure and then it's 'cause I'm just trying to get things done as quick as I can. Yeah. That's sort of I mean it's not you know it's not the paramount idea but it's I find I find that turning ideas around quickly is the best way to do it and you end up with the best result and then the time really is actually dotting the I's and crossing the T's afterwards. So all the minor kind of stupid details that you obsess about that nobody else listens to right so that's the bit that takes me the most time is finishing finishing them but getting the idea and the vibe and the structure and the format is that happens quickly.
SPEAKER_06I think we've done certain tracks over an hour or something you know send me something and then it's some of that some of that's the best stuff as well and we've got like plenty in the in the sort of you know in the background that are in the hole that it will be coming out this year as well but I that's exactly what I love is that there's a quick turnaround we're not overthinking anything it's just bang like smash it out good good to go. Move on move on just just wipe your hands of it move on.
SPEAKER_01Well that's it and that that's I think that's really important especially when you're creating stuff right because you can spend so much time working on one thing it's never going to be perfect.
Speed Over Perfection In Production
SPEAKER_05It's not going to be your best stuff you're best off just doing it finishing it drawing a line under it putting it out letting people hear it and then trying to make some better stuff right yeah man absolutely yeah yeah because I was gonna say like I just reminds you though when I was a um SAE years ago and I just one thing I reali I one of the I think the parts I realized I wasn't gonna be a producer in that was like spending time say like trying to record a drum kit which fuck that's another whole mission. Yeah like but then obsessing over like oh where do I put the mics in the room like spending just like four hours yeah just trying to find like a good place to put the overheads. Yeah. And I'm just it's just like painful yeah yeah but like I understand why it's important but I know and some people get a really big kick out of that and I think that's cool but I realized I'm not that person. Exactly yeah that's it's even a different thing to production right that's recording engineering recording engineer but then I guess from a producer port you want to sound as good as if you sample something you want it to sound as sure have you screwed around with stuff like that before like have you I don't know if you've recorded someone to get like a little I know I don't know maybe like a piano sample of someone recording it live or something.
SPEAKER_01It used to run a studio in the UK uh for 10 years. It was called uh Waxworks me and my uh partner DJ Camaro uh gas catcher shout outs to Gaz as well but yeah so that that was kind of it was more of a less of a m musician's studio and more of an urban music thing. So we did record guitars I think we did maybe drums once but we weren't really set up for that really but we had a vocal booth it was mainly about rap right so rap and DJ sets and that sort of shit you know so it's we've done a lot of recording but not not the end recording engineering side of it and I wouldn't even attempt it you know that's not my bag if I ever needed to do that I'd get a professional to do it. That's not me.
SPEAKER_05Yeah in itself yeah exactly yeah because I find um I don't know if you find this John you got because you're because you obviously you kind of oversee a lot of the recordings that John does he send you this guitar and like his instrumentation but I can't I find self-producing really difficult. Yeah I find like I have to have if I I haven't recorded like a song in the studio in a little while a few years but I have to have someone else.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Like I can obviously make the demo, can get all the bits, but I'm like I need someone else to like kind of push me or be like maybe you shouldn't be so keen on this.
SPEAKER_06There's a few factors to that I think. Yeah one of them is like um you kind of there's there's definitely like an imposter syndrome that thing that can happen as well if you're like oh I'm I'm not technically a producer I didn't get my degree and whatever and I you know it doesn't sound like the ones on the radio or whatever. I find like you kind of have to block that noise to a certain extent. Another thing is like time. So that's like obviously the big enemy is that no one has enough time and like if you can put a an hour or two a week that's probably gonna be a productive thing to do. Even if it's just utter garbage that you're recording for that hour. At least you're getting better at your workflow and you're learning how to use your door and your software and stuff and your instrument for that matter. It's a practice thing like anything but yeah I'd say time and like experiences like and and like don't complicate it I I think would be a really good piece of advice like there's a million plugins that you can throw on tracks and you can like you know over engineer the shit out of everything and like sometimes it doesn't need that. In fact most of the time it doesn't need that.
DJ Life, Stress, And Saying No
SPEAKER_01Yeah a lot of people try and add more rather than remove exactly right so a lot of it's sort of stripping things back you know yeah so like what what's um do you you still DJ live and do you play many sits or no no I was just I was just curious. No I mean I haven't I used to DJ quite a lot in the mid 2000s but I haven't since then really so since we uh opened the studio back in the UK little bits bits and pieces but New Zealand did for a while when I first moved here so I was DJing down at Rakinos if you remember that. Yeah probably Rakinos yeah um a few other spots as well we ran a um hip hop night with um asbo um DJ jazz cigarette is right yeah um called wild style that was main concept and then guests we did that for I think about four years at Cassette 9 but since then not not really I mean I would never class myself as a as a DJ there's a million better DJs than me you know it's I do do DJ sets but that's not my focus it's always more been on the production you know and and in the same way there's a million better scratchers than me but it's I guess the important thing is with anything is doing what you do and doing what you do well and finding your own voice and your own sound and that's I I prefer to spend more of my time refining that rather than playing music for for people you know to say it's I don't get the kick out of that like other people do. I find it actually quite stressful and you know do you take requests and all that sort of stuff it's just like fuck off.
SPEAKER_05Yeah you you become a joke box.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and it's and you know regardless of what gig you're doing it it does it does it happens everywhere right so it's and and it is frustrating especially when you've been booked to play a certain set of a certain style of music right and it's just like well the night is a fucking hip hop night right so have you got you know I don't know purple rain or something it's like no you know it's uh wagon wheel or it's like that's wagon wheel it's just like no man I've wagging wheel I I I've DJ'd a few times as well and I used to DJ on the radio down to Eden and stuff and I I've done bits and pieces or can DJ I suppose you'd say I own records and whatnot but I find it so stressful like I would much rather play to a room of a hundred or a thousand people for that matter on the guitar.
SPEAKER_06I feel like one percent nervous doing that versus like a thousand percent nervous like even just playing to my mates at a party like when I'm DJing because half of them are DJs as well and I just I can't handle it. Like I can't handle the responsibility of like looking after a dance floor.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I think it depends what the gig is right like so I'm definitely not a dance floor DJ right you know I'm early doors so like stick me on at six till nine perfect yeah you know that that's sweet where people just listen in you know that's that's the sort of stuff I would DJ you know kind of listening music sure you know but it's um yeah DJing clubs and stuff not not for me you know just leave up to the guys that do that thing right absolutely yeah because even with this I've never done DJing I tried I screwed around on my mates um uh like c dj C DJs and stuff a while back and I was like man this is hard ass trying to get the tracks but I'm like ah no this is true man there's part of my brain that doesn't unless I obviously spent hours and hours and hours doing it but I'm just like nah it's not it's not and ironically it's never been easier as well like there's like sync buttons and there's like filters and EQs that just kind of handle heaps of the heavy lifting these days on modern consoles.
SPEAKER_05Yeah but knowing you're sitting out of the track selection all the tempos and I'm just like I don't have that IQ for that. But it's funny the mention like about like yeah just playing request because like in the cover band it's kind of the same. Sure. Yeah like you're playing like we play all the bangers that's why I stopped doing it because well there's a few reasons I stopped doing it so just before I started this but part of the reason was like I just can't handle like just the drunken fucking muffins and by the end and also like I was like is this really worth it is this what I want to do with music so yeah it kind of was like I mean nice to get paid yeah for the beautiful yeah I mean for me I'd much prefer be sitting in the studio man you know that's that's kind of what I learned about myself too yeah and I love like I and also like it was sort of affecting me making music.
SPEAKER_06I still haven't kind of gonna like like making my own stuff because I was just always doing covers and I was like that's the thing man's and repeat and like I found the same thing when I was in a covers band and it was so artistically like bankrupt that I was actually I was actually in negative you know what I mean like because I'd come home and I wouldn't be creative. I didn't want to do music. I don't want to touch the instruments I was actually just losing artistic nothing wrong with covers bands I'm not hating on covers bands but you felt for me not for me.
SPEAKER_05I felt that too because when I look at my guitar or something I'm like oh that's work. Yeah it becomes a job it's probably if you do DJing it's Ovid now my dicks it's now it's a job.
SPEAKER_01Yeah well I guess I guess something like that right yeah it's akin to it somehow yeah yeah yeah yeah no that's a good point.
The Hustle, Late Nights, And Health
SPEAKER_05But um but yeah I I think um you know it's it's very difficult to try and make a living out of music in any way so if people can and people can do it. I know some people would do like um guitar teaching cover band uh music lessons and then have their project as well and um full respect people who can do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I I don't think I can that's I mean that's the way to do it right if you're working at gen unless you're really bloody lucky and you know you're at the top of the tree and you've got a massive following or something right which most people don't right yeah so you've got a mad hustles like the the full-time DJs that I know the hardest working people ever just constantly hustling for gigs and like chasing things and it's just like certain things fall through finding a new residency or it's just like damn man you know it's it's a lot like it's a lot. And then there's the drinking that goes involved with that too. You know it's just like exactly you know it's it's it's a lot to deal with.
SPEAKER_05Yeah it's best and the other thing is like all like the you know the late nights like stack up a bit as if it's like you know and it like your lifestyle just becomes uh not a not healthy one. No if that's your if that's your life.
SPEAKER_06I mean we met through like in a lot roundabout way uh mutual friend called Flex um Flex Webster shout out flex um crazy crazy good DJ amazing DJ um but like his in in terms of his like hours of work and stuff because we were living together and stuff was when I was lived in Sandringham and like it was outrageous like when I was on a nine to five and I'd come home and so he he'd be getting out of bed and he'd go to work at like nine o'clock pm and go back at 4 a.m. Yeah like it was just such a like and full credit if you can do that man that is like a slog but and amazing DJ but like not for me.
SPEAKER_01I mean yeah the the thing for flex is that's what he does right exactly so it's you know what what choice do you have? That's what you do.
SPEAKER_06Some people are born for that right that's the calling that's the calling like I I still miss like I haven't I played live uh last year did Cardian's last gig that was really fun yeah nice and I jumped on for a song I was like I did like miss just like being on stage and also playing like original music I was like ah this is really nice I did miss it a bit yeah but beforehand I'm like you know a little stressed I'm like oh been a minute am I gonna trip myself up over a cable like all that done so much logistical shit to be but I'm just like nah but then you just gotta go over the flow and then it's like it's totally totally fine but yeah man no I'm lucky I think we're both lucky enough to have a like a passion that we have identified in a long time ago young you know um music's always been that for me I'm lucky to have a few different avenues my full-time job and then my sort of punk rock band got a gig tonight oh yeah and and then the the kind of production side of it and all sorts of different other random sort of fingers in hand.
SPEAKER_01You're busy I'm a busy guy.
SPEAKER_05I love that though I love that you're so I think it also I want to talk to you guys about this is like be being more musically diverse is more accepted.
SPEAKER_06Because I don't know like I just remember like even when you were teaching me guitar lessons like people was like like rock and then I listen to rock I listen to hip hop that's it I listened to happy that's high school though right that's high school I was the same man I didn't like hip-hop at high school I you know it was probably your Cypress Hills and stuff that got me in eventually like but um yeah I I really didn't vibe with it. I didn't like reggae either and then I joined a reggae band and was in that for 12 years.
SPEAKER_05Yeah that was a sick band I still got that CD somewhere the Bitsu CD that was cool as but d did you for because for you you went you kind of already started in house and then went to hip hop but I guess I feel like in the maybe this is just my assumption in the producing world you kind of have to be more open to lots of music because you're sampling and creating things from so many different styles that's my assumption or am I wrong?
SPEAKER_01I mean for me I'm just I'm trying to hone it in right and this the there are people who produce multiple styles of music but it's I don't know I can't think of any majorly successful ones that cross so many different boundaries or genres really it's it's uh yeah I d I don't know about that one.
SPEAKER_05I think maybe for listening but um yeah for me I'm trying to hone it in further trying to get more pinpoint you know but I guess like with like your say for example you're what you're sampling in that we're talking about you know taking your horns part taking a guitar part taking a drum part you know that's a lot of different music you gotta listen to to find those find those parts and those bits.
SPEAKER_01I see I see what you're saying.
SPEAKER_06Right okay yeah yeah no for sure I mean anything could be sampled right yeah that's the fun thing about it it's why I love it um you can sample literally anything like whether it's like you tapping on a glass in your kitchen or you know the birds outside or like fucking you know playing a slide whistle or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Like timpani I played I made a track with some timpani recently I think the just the the fact that there's um I'm just about closing in on a project called Turntable Music which is all all scratched everything just is the whole thing is scratching. But yeah so some of the like the filler in samples uh things from like YouTube channels and things nicked little bits little bits of spoken word and I think the the available resources with the internet now is just infinitesimal right so it's it it's more there's almost too much to go at so much.
Projects, Labels, And Vinyl News
SPEAKER_06Yeah there's um I mean a good example of that I am doing a track at the moment that could be out later this year. It's one of the ones I sent you recently um and uh it's called Just for You and um I basically just googled hey are there any m are there any like movies that have the line of dialogue this is just for you and I found a couple of movies and one of them was perfect and one of them was like a random animated Disney movie from like the 50s or something. Like found a little tiny little snippet it's like less than a second long of this woman going this is just for you and like I sort of cut that apart, fucked with it. Probably shouldn't have mentioned that it's Disney now I'm gonna get sued but it's um it's completely different now and I'm like wicked that fits it bang off.
SPEAKER_01Yeah there you go it's so good like I mean yeah I mean good growing up and starting producing the only choice I had was to sample records right because the internet didn't exist. So it was you only had a record collection to go out right it's just like and records are cheap back then as well they're not like$70 and$50 and 20 bucks a second on the ones like they are now yeah they're crazy.
SPEAKER_06I remember certain certain um record shops in Bradford just big like kind of kind of warehousey type buildings just piles and piles of records like 50p a pound you know just so much gold in there like thousands tens of thousands just like wow you know but that that was a choice back then so you're kind of limited to what you could find on on vinyl to sample right but you know you can only use what you've got to to make something uh unique or something you can't you can't make sounds up can you yeah and I know that like in some ways and I th I think we've talked about this before and I've certainly heard it before from various people but you know the smaller your creative limits are the more um often the the more productive you are um and you know like those you know emu samples emu samplers from the late eighties or early nineties is a great example and you know limited yeah absolutely with second and a half memory right that would be insane now you can store hours of memory on a sample but like people making albums making tracks and then making albums using second and a half long samples and some of those are like some of the greatest hip hop albums of all time. Sure. Yeah yeah yeah that is really interesting isn't it like having uh limited limited resources to create and real crunchy lo-fi kind of eight bit sort of sounding samples you only got so much bit yeah man those Wu Tang albums all the like highs are rolled off and it just sounds dirty as grimy as fuck.
SPEAKER_01Look what people do with the 404s right yeah that's right the 404 samplers those little hand those little kind of spell you know spell is amazing on that thing right it's just just whole sets with it and it's like tiny little thing. It's like so cool.
SPEAKER_05What I want to know now is like what's the most amount of tracks you've worked with inside like a like when you've made a s like you've made a song how it's a really good question. What's the most amount I'm picturing like 200 I don't know why.
SPEAKER_06Dude what was that what was that track you played me on YouTube I think it was and it's like you doing like the record like the almost like the world record or something number of samples in one song or scratches rather I I I haven't come across it's not the world record but I haven't come across an insane amount.
SPEAKER_01I haven't come across one bigger but it took me a year and a half of my life to finish. How do we find what what what are people type in to find that? Unfinished business. Unfinished business Mr. Yeah so that was done on that was a release on a um album called Cuts of Culture through Eclectic Breaks Records and Turntable Radio Eclectic Breaks Turntable Radio back in two thousand three but yeah it's that must have been hundreds it must have been hundreds must have been I mean Have a listen, but it's uh it's nearly five minutes long and it's kind of a story track but all told in scratching.
SPEAKER_06It's incredible, man.
SPEAKER_01You gotta check it out. Every single sample is a is a piece of record, it's all from records, right? So it's again Serato didn't exist back then, so the only choice you had was your record collection, right? So it's but yeah, it's it took me a year and a half of of my life to you get you get halfway through a certain section and then I couldn't find like a rhyming part to go with it, or it's like ah you get sort of stuck on that bit. You go to a friend's house and you'd listen, suddenly find something on his record that you'd be like, Oh, that'll go there. Can I borrow this? I'll bring it back tomorrow. And then it'd start again because he found a link a bit, but it's yeah, look, must have been hundreds, must be hundreds, uh yeah, must be. Yeah, hundreds of records at least. Yeah, God has the love of the game right there.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, such a pastiche, like such an absolute like quilt work of of samples from like a thousand different sources.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, just having such a ear for that detail as well. That's and I find that pretty amazing, just to be like that one second, like, yeah, like you can just oh yeah, like you piecing together all those tracks, yeah. Sure. I know for me, I'm just like no, no, it's yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I've I've heard people do things bigger but with more people. I think this, you know, if they've each done like say a five-minute track with like wordplay scratch stuff or put it together, they've got maybe four or five DJs sharing the work, right? Yeah, but yeah, no, it's it was a labour. I love that one. I haven't I haven't gone back to trying anything else like that again since I was like, no, I'm done. You know, that's that that's that. I don't need to go back and do that again. But I guess the uh the new turntable stuff that I'm doing at the moment is kind of uh a bit of a nod to that um really, and but it's more of a it's an album, you know. So there's seven seven tracks. I've not gone to quite as much detail, but it's there's seven different tracks rather than one track.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_06That sounds awesome. So when can when can we expect that, bro?
SPEAKER_01I don't know. Um I'm not sure. I'm I'm trying to finish it off now, but there's there's so much going on.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um I spend a lot of time on the road with my other work, so it's it's true.
SPEAKER_06I've been trying to get him to do cunts for on a couple of tracks for a few weeks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've been I've been traveling pretty much consistently for about a year now, which is is it's crazy.
SPEAKER_05And check out this really cool scratching session from Mr. Ed. He uh does a bit of uh, you know, wicka wicka for us. Uh it's really cool, so check it out. I'm sorry, guys, but we ran into a similar issue that I did with a couple of podcasts ago. One of my cameras decided to shit the bed again. We've done three podcasts this year, and then twice we've had uh camera shit the bed again. I don't know what the issue is now again replacement but uh the rest of the podcast that can be done in audio only. Um with um Ed and John. So yeah, listen to the rest because these guys have awesome musical knowledge to uh together and share with us.
SPEAKER_01Me and John have got an album together nearly as well now. So there's there's two sort of albums. Yeah, it's it's it's the second one's better, I think. But yeah, there's there's two album projects coming to two different things, and then uh um a few of the rap projects that I've got doing as well. So there's quite a lot under the sort of under the hood. Yeah, you know, they're different.
SPEAKER_06Absolutely, man. Yeah, there's definitely gonna be something out um from my end, probably with a fair amount of input from him by around September, and um hopefully by the end of the year a little bit more as well, so we'll kind of drip feed it out.
SPEAKER_01Well the you know, there'll be I reckon there'll be a big chunk all of us all of a sudden. Exactly.
SPEAKER_06It's like the Millennium Jazz thing, right? Like that kind of just happened.
SPEAKER_01That was a label that um uh EP got signed to, which was it was a pretty big deal. We've got the um track coming out on uh Reliable Source 2 as well. Yes, except the vinyl one. Yeah, Vill Village. So pretty exciting that. Yeah. Oh, you are kidding. That's my that's the phone on silent that we um leave it at the end of the phone. Just to just to prove I did have it on silent. So good. Yeah, so there's a vinyl coming out as well. Yeah, uh uh Village Live Records uh based in uh Europe. Um Reliable Source is um I guess like a compilation album of different beat makers from around the world, and we've managed to sneak on with one of ours as well. Um yeah, John doing his uh guitar and bass thing. That was actually the track that we were talking about earlier that you were like, I can't get written on it, but I found that one little bit that made the whole thing work. But yeah, no, it's um great little track. Um yeah, that should be out towards the end of the year. Hopefully get some vinyl copies in New Zealand, right?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Mr. Ed, M-I-S-T-A-E-D, and inside trading. Keep an eye out for it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm sorry. Thanks for spelling it out.
SPEAKER_05Have to, bro. Yeah. Um I want to also ask, like, for your experience now still doing uh with your producing, what is what's been like the biggest piece of technology maybe in the last like what what's been the biggest piece of technology that's come along that's changed the game for what you do?
SPEAKER_01I'm you I'm using the same thing. Same thing? Yeah, so I just I use keybase. Okay, yeah, and that's that's it. So I don't have any other technology. I guess the updates in the software is is something, but in in using the turntables kind of l you wouldn't ever record turntables into like an NPC, for example, which is what a lot of people use for hip hop production, right? You you you wouldn't do that, right? So it's for for me the multi-track recording thing, uh cube, the original music production software, right?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, from you know and 1200 well and and turntables, right? If you want to make old school music, you keep it old school, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Of course, yeah, turntables with remote. Yeah, just multi-track recording. There's there's been a quite a lot of updates in Cubase because I had a 10-year break from production, so I've only just picked it up again, you know, two two years ago, three years ago. Um, but yeah, there's the updates in Cubase are pretty amazing. The some of the time stretching type of stuff and pitch correction and you know stem extraction, and there's quite a new uh a new set of tools to use within it, but I wouldn't say there's anything brand new turned up in my sort of workflow at all. Really, it's just the same. Um things have got easier internally in the software, but yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I was gonna say, has it like helped you like streamline that better, like to save time on I don't know, little bits?
SPEAKER_01Definitely, uh even just processing power, right? So my my my first production PC had 128 mega RAM. You hit render, and it takes like probably 15 minutes to render and I I remember doing one, I think it was might have been unfinished business, and it was just I was trying to do loads of different sort of bounce downs in one, and it was like about an hour, and then it went about two hours, and then it went up to about a day. I was like, I've never seen that before. I was like, cancel it, and then it just crashed. Yeah, that's like you know, but yeah, I think just yeah, processing power is definitely helpful, and you can run the instances different instances and lots of plugins and stuff if you want, and mastering stuff all at the same time, it's which is super handy, you know. I think just uh the technological advancements and the ability of computer to handle different process processes is probably probably the biggest help, really.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, absolutely. I'm a guitarist and a keys guy, so I'm gonna shout out my Casio keyboard because I love it. And I play the CTS1 and it's dope. Um and they they've just like they sound real beautiful. I'm not I'm not like a super technical kind of piano virtuoso piano guy, but I love my literate pianos and I love like just real nice, warm kind of tones. So yeah, just keep it old school as well.
New Producers To Watch
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man, that's it. And I I th yeah, I'm I'm not as forward thinking as other people might be. I'm kind of setting my ways, right? So it's there's there's people that I know that are see you know getting all sorts of new gear and stuff, and it does make a difference to them, but it's I'm not doing it for that really. I'm just trying to go going, I'm doubling down on what I do, right? And yeah.
SPEAKER_06I've learned when making music for him and like putting guitars in particular on things. I've got like my big pet award, like a lot of guitarists, and like you know, compressors, distortions, your big muffs, you like reverbs, choruses, and stuff. Got like a wicked like avalanche run, like uh kind of delay reverb at the end, which is just gorgeous, makes everything sound amazing. I like get something sounding real mint, send it to him, and he's like, Oh no, I just need it dry, bro. Do not want the effects.
SPEAKER_02But it sounds so good.
SPEAKER_06If you like you kind of it's real hard to play guitar and record guitar with no effects as well. It sounds like dry as fuck.
SPEAKER_05I I remember the first time I ever recorded an acoustic guitar in the studio like properly, and it was a slower song. Holy shit, that was like one of the hardest recording sessions I've done in my life. It's so naked. Yeah. Because when it's a bit faster and like picking, you can kind of like you get the finger stuff going and a nice clean recording.
SPEAKER_06I reckon it as a like if you're a drummer, it's harder to play a slow beat in time than it is to play like a medium fast one. Like it it's sounds counterintuitive, but it's really hard to play a real consistent slow beat in the pocket.
SPEAKER_05Like it's real difficult. And never go out of time and like perfectly aligned, yeah. It's uh yeah, yeah, it's um that's hard. And I found that I found that with like they're doing the acoustic guitaring, like it's just so naked. Have you done much for acoustic guitar?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, quite a bit, yeah. Um got a a couple of nice mics and a and a decent guitar as well. So um I'm like I don't have like a treated room or anything, so I'm like, I'm the same. Like um I'm I kind of obsess over like the sound initially a little bit, and then I'm like, oh, what will come will come kind of thing, and then just sort of you know you're right though, the less happening in uh especially if you're just doing like finger style plucking or something on an acoustic, there's so like you hear all the string noise, all the buzz, yeah, all the buzz, like oh that E-strings a little bit slightly out of tune or whatever. Yeah, um no, it's it's it's real it strips strips it away, definitely. It's really um like yeah, it shows all the mistakes.
SPEAKER_05There's always the thing. Um who um would you say right now, uh in in your world with production or sampling, is there any like new artists or people out there doing something really cool that you like?
SPEAKER_01Vanilla is somebody I've come across recently who's really good. I think he's I mean, he's new to me. He's obviously been around a while, but I think he's got the kind of got that um modern sound and that his mixed downs sound really nice, musically really good. Um as we've just mentioned, Spell's doing some really cool stuff. You know, every time I see Spell do stuff, I'm like, whoa.
SPEAKER_05Well what what kind of genre does he do?
SPEAKER_01Is that the same like the scratching hip-hop, or is it sort of like he's a DMC champion from from New Zealand?
SPEAKER_06That's like the turntable world champs, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh right, yeah, turntableism, yeah, yeah. So Spell's a bad man. Yeah, I think Battle DJ.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, incredible DJ.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but also Wikimedia. I've never watched a battle DJ. Yeah, right. It's awesome, bro.
SPEAKER_06They do the spins, they do the flare, it's like amazing. That's like all real crazy. Like sometimes it sort of sounds like it's not in time, sometimes, like from from a strictly like rhythm point of view, but it's all like oh man, that's crazy, it's hard to describe. But it's like often like what are they, like two-minute little routines or something like that? Six minutes, easily, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, it it depends, but yeah, the the the world finals are no six minute blocks. But spell's been a good um move from from his turntablism stuff to more production now. Um yeah, I mean there's there's so many people.
SPEAKER_06I'll shout out um Diala, I think, I think is how you say it. D Y A L L A. Um, that's a Kiwi uh female producer, she's like amazing, kind of lo-fi kind of downbeat hip-hop vibes. Fucking awesome, awesome stuff. Um so I think she's all combassed as well. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Um doing some big things on Spotify and the rest of them as well.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05As I was listening to like your um your tracks, I just put on like the Spotify playlist, and I was like, I love listening to this when I'm working. Oh, don't it's so like it's so nice to like listen to like the scratching is like energetic enough where I'm like, oh yeah, but now my kind of keeps my brain kind of firing. Yeah, right. You know, so no, I wanna I'd yeah, I'd like to get some more of that stuff.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I like um one of the big pleasures for me, like I said, like you know, getting into the studio for an hour or whatever. I love bouncing it down just before I go to bed and then putting it on my like or emailing it to myself and listening to it in the car on the way to work the next day. That's like a big thing for me. I'm like, fuck yeah, like I made this last night. It's like it doesn't come any fresher than that. Yeah, right. It's fucking awesome.
SPEAKER_01I think well, you need to listen to what you're doing on as many different systems as you can, exactly. I think, especially these days, does it sound good on your phone and that as shit as it is? Because people aren't listening to stuff on speakers, right? They're listening to it on new booms or mostly on the phone or like streaming it somewhere or whatever, like portable speaks and stuff. Sound bars and stuff, yeah. Or just no soundbars, just TV, just raw dogs. I know people that do that, people that are into music listening to stuff on the TV. I'm like, hey, really? You know, it's like where you speak it is just easier on the TV. I guess so, you know. Which is very but the yeah, I think it's like if it translates to your phone, that's where a lot of people will be listening to. And it there is this there is a certain thing that works on a phone and doesn't, right? So it's like you gotta test that first, I think. As crap as that is, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's it's interesting. I remember like the first time I recorded in a studio, and then I was like listening on like some I know, some like the first Samsung Galaxy or something, and then it was just like the fuck are you gonna put headphones on and you're not gonna get it otherwise? I'm like, yeah, yeah. And it's like, oh yeah, yeah, for sure. And then later on, I'm like, yeah, but everyone just listens to out of their phone. Not everyone's gonna have headphones, not everyone's gonna have a nice sound, but not everyone's gonna have nice speakers, you know.
SPEAKER_01I don't know, it's just one on this one, the vibe of it. What's the vibe? They're not listening to the mix down or the like how clear it is or any of that stuff.
SPEAKER_05I listen to that scratcher, like one minute thirty-two, like I can hear the crispness like that. It's not what it is, yeah. They don't give a shit, yeah. So it's interesting, really, isn't it? Yeah, that level of yeah, I find these days I'm a lot more like kind of detached from it, but every now and again there'll be some sound that catches my eye that I'm like, oh, that's really cool. I was listening to a Chinese rapper, um what's his name? Sky Sky the God. He got kind of like viral a bit, but he had this really cool, like um, what's the Chinese violin called that they play? Um uh the air the airhu, I think.
SPEAKER_06Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_05I think that's the name of it. And uh he had like a hip-hop sample. Well, I loved about it because it had like some kind of ancient traditional Chinese instruments and it has really cool that little bit in it. And I'm like, that's sick. Yeah, but I don't I don't have that happen very often when I'm like, oh, okay, that's cool. You need to textures there. I love it when people do that. I'm like, oh, that's cool. Like just something that you just I wouldn't, you know, if I not that I make music like that, but I wouldn't in my day-to-day life hear those sounds or those Tombras, yeah. And I'm like, that's cool. Waggotta like, yeah, gotta level up and find other other sounds. Have you ever tried to play around with um, I don't know, listening to I don't know, music from other parts of the world and grabs. 100%, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, uh the the EP that we did, uh the track isolation, the um the flutes.
SPEAKER_06Yes.
SPEAKER_01So it kind of when you listen to it kind of sounds like I've just sampled a a like a section, but I haven't. It's I've sampled uh the flute and then played the flute. But on the sampler, yeah, yeah. So it's like there is that that line doesn't exist, you know, I've played it, but then it's it's got a real um like yeah mystical sound to it. Yeah, that that's that's from um a recording called uh Melodies for uh Japanese flute and harp. And I've had it years and I've used it for other things as well. So it's like a really nice library of different uh harps and flutes, all separated, right? So you can get really nice clean sections of it. It's um yeah, there's uh especially if I think it's for sampling for sure. You know, it's um sampled some Russian stuff a while ago. The one that we did for um uh The Day You Never Returned, right? Yes There was uh a section in that that's from like some Ukrainian choir. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Just one little bit.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. No, that's a cool track as well. You find that uh sometimes they get like put on random um playlists if they have that vibe as well. Yeah. Like um someone will find it or whatever, and it'll get submitted to it'll end up on like um deep oriental calm or something like that. Like some weird, like yeah, like slight slightly obscure like Japanese lo-fi beats. Yeah or something.
SPEAKER_01Music to do your shopping too.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, like real niche. Yeah. Music for when you're home from your uncle's house holding a cigar and there's a twenty dollar note in your button.
SPEAKER_05Oh that's so that's when he listened to it. Yeah. Yeah, there's that um a Japanese guitarist who makes like uh like I forgot his name. It's he I can't remember his name, but he's very big now on YouTube. But he would have titled his stuff like that.
SPEAKER_06Yes, he'll be like little one minute like one minute like crazy guitar. Yeah, yeah.
Algorithms, Loudness, And Listening
SPEAKER_05And he's like, I just like like I won't like when you get home after you got beaten by your dad or something. But like I I get it what he's trying to do. But yeah, like it's um yeah, it's a it's a vibe now. Like it's interesting, like um I find now like I'm just so on the digital, like listening to music on I'd love to do the vinyl, but I don't have the money. Because one, like that's the hobby when I have a bit more money. I know for a fact I will get addicted to buying records, but they're so expensive to black cracking. I think so. I think I'll be I'll get into it. So right now, but when I listen on like Spotify and stuff, and I go on like those uh you know, like song radios and that and I just you just get so um it's such an interesting way to like listen to it or like the your your daily mix or the vibes that you that they that they can curate for you. Like it's kind of crazy how the algorithms work to be honest.
SPEAKER_01Like they're so advanced. Amazing, really.
SPEAKER_06I mean I've noticed it's like I think it's based I've I've noticed recently that it's like I'm sure when I was driving over the harbour bridge last Friday afternoon, the same exact song came on, even though I'm on a playlist with like you know 400 other songs and I'm just randomizing it. But I'm like, is this noticing that at 4 30 in the I I want to hear this? I never I didn't skip this last week at 4 30 in the afternoon. You know, like so now it thinks you want to hear it again.
SPEAKER_01Music music for driving over the harbour bridge though. It's a new playlist, nailed it. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, but obviously Spotify gets a lot of hate with the the the back end and the sort of management of it and all that sort of yeah. But technologically, I think I knew of those things you can't I mean you can't front on it.
SPEAKER_05It's it's it's worked and right, it's taken over, you know, and I I agree with like the management side of things and that I I agree, but I mean the technology is just that's an amazing it's so it does it does work, right? Yeah, and the catalogue on Spotify, like um I know I fully respect other ones I was listening to like Tidal Your Friends Place, but the thing is is that even like trying to find some local artists I know or trying to find even like medium uh successful artists, I can't find them. Yeah, right. You know, the library's just not as extensive, yeah. Right, interesting. The other thing, like Spotify just has fucking YouTube music too. Yeah, YouTube music, yeah. So but that's that's the thing where I'm like, I would love to find someone else, but can you match the platform that the the the level of sophistication of the algorithms?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I agreed. I mean, obviously, it's not the platform to support the artist. No, but no, it's definitely not platforms of access, yeah. Access and and um yeah, exposure, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't really spend much time on Spotify, really. I'm still an MP3 guy, which is yeah, still download MP3s. Straight up old school.
SPEAKER_05Is it YouTube MP3? No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01No, I do my piracy in that.
SPEAKER_05There we go.
SPEAKER_06It's funny because if you are a DJ or if you if you know you're DJing and you go to a club and someone's playing ripped MP threes, fuck it's so obvious, but it sounds like shit. Uh again, like some distortion. Fifty percent probably of the people there wouldn't even know. No. But man, the resolution once you hear it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the artifacts, right? No, no, yeah, massive. No, no. I've seen it I've seen a big DJ come to Auckland that I've got tickets for and everything. I was really excited to go and see him. I'm not going to say who it was, but it it was in like a video set and it was all YouTube video rips, but he hadn't replaced the audio, so it was just and it was just really, really bad. It's ruined my my whole sort of idea of this guy. I'm just like, oh man. And it was like he didn't give a shit, you know, amazing. Lazy. Big tunes, and fair enough, the video's gonna look like it looks, but you could at least replace the audio very easily. It's just like it's quite bothered. It's just like man, like whatever.
SPEAKER_05But yeah, it's that just reminds me um of his memory that just came to. But when I used to work at um, I used to work at Sky City in the entertainment department, and I used to be like a soundie there in there. And I remember like we get DJs who come in, and I'm just like every time I'd be like, how like most of them, all of their masters are up to like 10.
SPEAKER_06Okay, redlining.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Redlining, and every time it's just like fucking the day. Yeah, again, huge Vaux-par if you actually know DJs. I was like, oh man, like I was like, well, you know, we turn it up right with the speaker system, like we don't have like you can see the you know the subs and everything. Yeah, it's and then sometimes you've got to EQ it from because I you can I EQ it from the desk in that, but I'm just like their base, it's like 10 treble zero.
SPEAKER_06I don't think people realise how much like preamps in mixes and consoles and stuff make a difference as well. Like redlining a cheap like three or four hundred dollar mixer it sounds like garbage.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it was it was such a headache, but it would just but happen so often. Like it was just all the time.
Swing, Grids, And Human Feel
SPEAKER_01Loudness wars, right? Yeah, that's basically innit, you know. It's yeah, that modern the modern the modern twist. It's it it's sort of a problem in itself, really, because you you you want to kind of create your mixes and uh masters as loud as possible, but you don't to try and compete with the loudness of uh everybody else's you want dynamics as well as you want dynamics too, and it's yeah, yeah, you you can always turn it up, but it's it's just the way it's gone, right? The per se and it's not even that it is actually louder, it's the perceived loudness. It's the same volume, but it's the perception of loudness, which is a crazy, crazy thing, really. But yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I I find that like um because with radio, like it's also depending on what you put it on, because let's say after you've finished mastering a track, you can do the compressors limiters, all that stuff, and it's like, right, this is like you know, sounds good, it's loud enough, cool. But now when you put it on the platforms, they also now compress it and then up it, and you go into radio, and then they do it, like compress it and upper the volume and then squash it, and now it's like what happened to my song. Yeah, totally, man. There's something else you've got to think about, like where when you I I guess if that's you know it's your job or something like that.
SPEAKER_06That is like sounds horrific. Like it sounds really, really bad. And like again, if like classical music is a really good example in jazz, like you don't want you you need dynamics, sure, and and you listen to you to a record from the 70s or something, and it's like man, the lows are so low, like and there's so much um nuance that you can hear, and I actually need to turn my volume up so I can hear the detail. Whereas like you put on like a Chili's album or something, like, and it's just like fuck I'm you blasted. Like, I'm just like everything's squashed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well like drum drum and bass, right? Modern drum and bass. Modern drum and bass, it's just if you look at the waveform, it just looks like a big black sausage.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's just a beautiful huge rectangle is like meme. Yeah, because that's the other like dynamic range, like it's it's interesting, eh? Like listening to when I was like stuff like 70s and that, and it's just like it's so much range, yeah. So much range. And like uh I think now we're just and also like the other things is to the grid, right? So I mean just in general, I just not too sure about the sampling production world as much, but I know in like you're like recording music, like everything is now just tight to the grid, you know, so all music is perfectly aligned, which is something like where it's like so with with robotic one thing I learned, you know, once I got into kind of hip-hop production and stuff was um about swing.
SPEAKER_06And you're you're absolutely right that when you make a lot of electronic music it's aligned to a grid and it's like you know, you got if if people aren't sure what we mean by a grid, if you can imagine like you know, uh song being divided into bars and each bar having typically four beats of the bar, and then four times four is sixteen, and then that would be your A part, and then the second sixteen would be maybe the B part or whatever, the chorus potentially or whatever. And obviously, it's in groups of four sixteen, thirty-two, sixty-four, and so on. When you put uh a beat, say I'm putt putting a beat to a grid and I put a kick at one and a kick um you know at three, and then I put a snare at two, so it's like doom, kick doom, or whatever. If I just put that as a robotic grid and I just stick it into a grid, it doesn't sound right. Like when you're making hip-hop, it just sounds like a robot is making hip-hop. So you have to add what's called swing, and the NPC, which is a music production center that came out in sort of the eighties and nineties, the nineties, I think. It was I think it was originally in the late 70s or something.
SPEAKER_01No, I think so.
SPEAKER_06Okay, I'm just gonna sidetrack. But that had a feature which was called MPC swing. So instead of being at a hundred percent perfectly on the grid, you could deliberately move certain notes or beats or parts of a track, typically the rhythm, so that it would add like a artificial sort of swing to it, which sounds like a human is playing the beat. So you'd basically you can turn a robot sounding beat into like a nice hip and when you hear that NPC swing, yeah, it's a certain percentage that is exactly sounds right. That's hip-hop. Like that sounds exactly like a hip-hop beat. So that was like a huge learning curve for me, learning that. Yeah, um, like a big like light bulb moment. It's like fuck, no wonder it sounds like a robot before. Now it's like actually sounds like a beat.
SPEAKER_01Especially when you're doing it. Well, what software do you use?
Final Shoutouts And Where To Find Us
SPEAKER_06I I use uh Studio One. Studio One, yeah. I mean, like you say, if you're just sampling a beat itself and throwing it on the grid, it's a different story. But if you're making the beat from scratch, I make the kick, I make the snare, I make the hi-hats. If I just throw that all onto a grid, it sounds like shit. Whereas if I have to if I add a little bit of swing to it, it starts sounding like a drummer is actually playing that beat, which is a massive difference.
SPEAKER_01Like, yeah. Well, I guess you've really got to think about that when you're using multitruck, right? Big time. Yeah, you've got to do it yourself, right? But yeah.
SPEAKER_05Nah, that's interesting. Sweet guys. Um, I think that's kind of all I've really got for you, fellas. Um, any final words or no, no worries, man.
SPEAKER_06Thanks for having us. Um keep an eye out for our stuff. All sorts of stuff. Yeah, all sorts of stuff. And uh come find us on the usual places. Mr Ed. You can find Mr. Ed, M I S T A Ed, and I'm inside trading. And uh yeah, we'll see you guys soon.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks for having us.
SPEAKER_06That was awesome.
SPEAKER_05So thank you boys.
